<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0" xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/" xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/" > <channel><title>Comments on: The Truth About Jewish &#8216;Settlers&#8217;</title> <atom:link href="http://www.israellycool.com/2005/01/06/the-truth-about-jewish-settlers/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://www.israellycool.com/2005/01/06/the-truth-about-jewish-settlers/</link> <description>Down Under Punditry in the Middle East</description> <lastBuildDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 02:32:44 +0000</lastBuildDate> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2</generator> <item><title>By: Anonymous</title><link>http://www.israellycool.com/2005/01/06/the-truth-about-jewish-settlers/comment-page-1/#comment-2631</link> <dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 08 Jan 2005 16:24:39 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.israellycool.com/2005/01/06/the-truth-about-jewish-settlers/#comment-2631</guid> <description>I have been thinking about how to reply to what you wrote.  A lot is true - the government did encourage Israelis to move into the territories after 1967, no Arab villages were destroyed, the Arabs started the wars, etc. etc. etc.  Nothing new there to people in Israel or who know about the situation.BUTFirstly, I have to say that the orange star stunt was not just a mistake, it destroyed any sympathy I (and many others) might have had for these people, because they implicitly compared the IDF - which includes my 3 sons - to Nazis, and that is unforgivable.  It is also a disturbing indication of their mindset.But leaving that aside for the moment, I think what disturbs me about the settlers is that they don&#039;t seem Jewish to me.  Yes, yes, I know they&#039;re Orthodox, but that isn&#039;t what I mean.  Like most western immigrants I came to Israel to live among Jews, and I suppose like everyone I have my own concept of what that means.  In my perception, Jews were never extremists, they always knew when to compromise, the most important thing was to survive.  They knew how to get what they wanted by being clever, not aggressive.We have our own state now, it&#039;s not perfect but our main aim should be to ensure that state survives, and at the moment I don&#039;t think we can do that by insisting that we will live in areas mainly populated by Arabs or that the world has decided belong to the Arabs.  Maybe the world is wrong;  in 1947 David ben Gurion was offered a very small part of the Mandate territory and accepted - that was the Jewish way in my opinion;  the Arabs attacked and Israel doubled its land area and now the world accepts those ceasefire lines.  I know the Arabs don&#039;t  - so let&#039;s call their bluff.  Instead of always being right, let&#039;s be clever for once.The way we ensure that the Jewish state survives is by respecting the fact that we live in a democracy and we have to accept what our elected government decides.  We can demonstrate, write to Members of the Knesset, but we can&#039;t break the law.  This applies to both right and left.The settlers are not bad people, but they are misguided;  their readiness to fight the elected government and the army that is our protection for their beliefs could lead to civil war which would be a tragedy.Finally, I do not believe the settlements (I have to use that word) contribute anything to our security - although many carry arms, in fact they are largely protected by IDF soldiers, and require a very high ratio of guards to residents.  A single border line would be far easier to protect.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been thinking about how to reply to what you wrote.  A lot is true &#8211; the government did encourage Israelis to move into the territories after 1967, no Arab villages were destroyed, the Arabs started the wars, etc. etc. etc.  Nothing new there to people in Israel or who know about the situation.</p><p>BUT</p><p>Firstly, I have to say that the orange star stunt was not just a mistake, it destroyed any sympathy I (and many others) might have had for these people, because they implicitly compared the IDF &#8211; which includes my 3 sons &#8211; to Nazis, and that is unforgivable.  It is also a disturbing indication of their mindset.</p><p>But leaving that aside for the moment, I think what disturbs me about the settlers is that they don&#8217;t seem Jewish to me.  Yes, yes, I know they&#8217;re Orthodox, but that isn&#8217;t what I mean.  Like most western immigrants I came to Israel to live among Jews, and I suppose like everyone I have my own concept of what that means.  In my perception, Jews were never extremists, they always knew when to compromise, the most important thing was to survive.  They knew how to get what they wanted by being clever, not aggressive.</p><p>We have our own state now, it&#8217;s not perfect but our main aim should be to ensure that state survives, and at the moment I don&#8217;t think we can do that by insisting that we will live in areas mainly populated by Arabs or that the world has decided belong to the Arabs.  Maybe the world is wrong;  in 1947 David ben Gurion was offered a very small part of the Mandate territory and accepted &#8211; that was the Jewish way in my opinion;  the Arabs attacked and Israel doubled its land area and now the world accepts those ceasefire lines.  I know the Arabs don&#8217;t  &#8211; so let&#8217;s call their bluff.  Instead of always being right, let&#8217;s be clever for once.</p><p>The way we ensure that the Jewish state survives is by respecting the fact that we live in a democracy and we have to accept what our elected government decides.  We can demonstrate, write to Members of the Knesset, but we can&#8217;t break the law.  This applies to both right and left.</p><p>The settlers are not bad people, but they are misguided;  their readiness to fight the elected government and the army that is our protection for their beliefs could lead to civil war which would be a tragedy.</p><p>Finally, I do not believe the settlements (I have to use that word) contribute anything to our security &#8211; although many carry arms, in fact they are largely protected by IDF soldiers, and require a very high ratio of guards to residents.  A single border line would be far easier to protect.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Anonymous</title><link>http://www.israellycool.com/2005/01/06/the-truth-about-jewish-settlers/comment-page-1/#comment-2630</link> <dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 08 Jan 2005 10:41:24 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.israellycool.com/2005/01/06/the-truth-about-jewish-settlers/#comment-2630</guid> <description>Great post, explaining a lot for me. But then what do you think about Sharon&#039;s decision about Gaza? Also, what is the public opinion in Israel about Sharon? Thanks :)</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post, explaining a lot for me. But then what do you think about Sharon&#8217;s decision about Gaza? Also, what is the public opinion in Israel about Sharon? Thanks <img src='http://www.israellycool.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Anonymous</title><link>http://www.israellycool.com/2005/01/06/the-truth-about-jewish-settlers/comment-page-1/#comment-2629</link> <dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 06 Jan 2005 23:35:55 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.israellycool.com/2005/01/06/the-truth-about-jewish-settlers/#comment-2629</guid> <description>It&#039;s unbelievable that Jews are called &quot;settlers&quot; in their own homeland.  It&#039;s like calling American Indians who live in America settlers.  It&#039;s ridicoulous!  I see these people as heroes protecting their land and their families.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s unbelievable that Jews are called &#8220;settlers&#8221; in their own homeland.  It&#8217;s like calling American Indians who live in America settlers.  It&#8217;s ridicoulous!  I see these people as heroes protecting their land and their families.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Anonymous</title><link>http://www.israellycool.com/2005/01/06/the-truth-about-jewish-settlers/comment-page-1/#comment-2627</link> <dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 06 Jan 2005 16:06:31 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.israellycool.com/2005/01/06/the-truth-about-jewish-settlers/#comment-2627</guid> <description>Let me first say that I am a proud Zionist and I am glad to see someone counteracting the bullshit portrayal of &quot;settlers&quot; in the media.However, while I think it is foul to characterize settlers as the Israeli equivalent of Palestinian extremists, I think you whitewash the group more than is merited.There are some things I disagree with in your post, and I will tackle a few:* &quot;Jews have historically lived there&quot; -- Hebron, sure. Gaza? I&#039;m not so sure about that. Furthermore, the claim that these are traditionally Jewish areas contradicts your remark that some were built on previously inhabited land. Many of the settlements in Judea and Samaria were built on land that was and always had been wilderness.* Yes, Israeli terrorists are &quot;caught and charged&quot;, but you don&#039;t even mention Baruch Goldstein (!) and how he&#039;s been beatified by many settlers.Additionally, you make no distinction between the state of Israel, the majority of the citizens, and the settlers. To present settlers as just Israelis who happen to live over the Green Line is a gross oversimplification and ignores the many divisions between settlers and other Israelis that get covered in the press.* For example, you have even the right-wing PM Ariel Sharon proposing that Gaza be evacuated, but there are many settlers who oppose such an action -- this is the context in which the yellow (actually orange) star controversy came up.* Also, the settlers do often violate Israeli law, such as when they expand beyond what the law permits, bulldoze Arab olive crops and get away with it, or quickly erect illegal outposts.I agree that settlers get the short end of the stick, and it&#039;s unfair and vicious how they&#039;re characterized as &quot;the&quot; reason why there is no Palestinian state, and I appreciate your effort to correct that propaganda. But there is a lot more nuance to the issue than saying all settlers are a buch of mensches who get a bad rap.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me first say that I am a proud Zionist and I am glad to see someone counteracting the bullshit portrayal of &#8220;settlers&#8221; in the media.</p><p>However, while I think it is foul to characterize settlers as the Israeli equivalent of Palestinian extremists, I think you whitewash the group more than is merited.</p><p>There are some things I disagree with in your post, and I will tackle a few:</p><p>* &#8220;Jews have historically lived there&#8221; &#8212; Hebron, sure. Gaza? I&#8217;m not so sure about that. Furthermore, the claim that these are traditionally Jewish areas contradicts your remark that some were built on previously inhabited land. Many of the settlements in Judea and Samaria were built on land that was and always had been wilderness.</p><p>* Yes, Israeli terrorists are &#8220;caught and charged&#8221;, but you don&#8217;t even mention Baruch Goldstein (!) and how he&#8217;s been beatified by many settlers.</p><p>Additionally, you make no distinction between the state of Israel, the majority of the citizens, and the settlers. To present settlers as just Israelis who happen to live over the Green Line is a gross oversimplification and ignores the many divisions between settlers and other Israelis that get covered in the press.</p><p>* For example, you have even the right-wing PM Ariel Sharon proposing that Gaza be evacuated, but there are many settlers who oppose such an action &#8212; this is the context in which the yellow (actually orange) star controversy came up.</p><p>* Also, the settlers do often violate Israeli law, such as when they expand beyond what the law permits, bulldoze Arab olive crops and get away with it, or quickly erect illegal outposts.</p><p>I agree that settlers get the short end of the stick, and it&#8217;s unfair and vicious how they&#8217;re characterized as &#8220;the&#8221; reason why there is no Palestinian state, and I appreciate your effort to correct that propaganda. But there is a lot more nuance to the issue than saying all settlers are a buch of mensches who get a bad rap.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Anonymous</title><link>http://www.israellycool.com/2005/01/06/the-truth-about-jewish-settlers/comment-page-1/#comment-2626</link> <dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 06 Jan 2005 15:15:55 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.israellycool.com/2005/01/06/the-truth-about-jewish-settlers/#comment-2626</guid> <description>&#039;When peace comes, we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons. But it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons.&#039;~Golda Meir~She makes two important distinctions in this quote that should be instructive to anyone tempted to compare settlers with terrorists:1.  The use of the word &#039;when&#039; in the same sentence as the word &#039;peace&#039;.2.  The introduction of the concept of guilt into a discussion of using lethal force to defend oneself.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;When peace comes, we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons. But it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons.&#8217;</p><p>~Golda Meir~</p><p>She makes two important distinctions in this quote that should be instructive to anyone tempted to compare settlers with terrorists:</p><p>1.  The use of the word &#8216;when&#8217; in the same sentence as the word &#8216;peace&#8217;.</p><p>2.  The introduction of the concept of guilt into a discussion of using lethal force to defend oneself.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Aussie Dave</title><link>http://www.israellycool.com/2005/01/06/the-truth-about-jewish-settlers/comment-page-1/#comment-2628</link> <dc:creator>Aussie Dave</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 06 Jan 2005 09:52:41 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.israellycool.com/2005/01/06/the-truth-about-jewish-settlers/#comment-2628</guid> <description>Thank you for your comments, Joe.Allow me to tackle the points you have raised.&lt;em&gt;&quot;Jews have historically lived there&quot; -- Hebron, sure. Gaza? I&#039;m not so sure about that.&quot;&lt;/em&gt;Jews have historically lived in Gaza. I can provide you with many sources for this.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.acpr.org.il/cloakrm/clk164.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here&#039;s&lt;/a&gt; one.&lt;em&gt;the claim that these are traditionally Jewish areas contradicts your remark that some were built on previously inhabited land.&lt;/em&gt;I think you misread my statement, since I never claimed this. Rather, I stated the exact opposite - the settlements were built on previously unoccupied land. Meaning unoccupied at the time the settlements were built.By the way, all of Israel is traditionally Jewish land, even if there were other inhabitants in the land in the years between the Jews expulsion from this land, and the creation of the modern day settlements.&lt;em&gt;Yes, Israeli terrorists are &quot;caught and charged&quot;, but you don&#039;t even mention Baruch Goldstein (!) and how he&#039;s been beatified by many settlers. &lt;/em&gt;The point of the post is not to mention all instances of the despicable actions of some settlers, but rather to counteract perceptions that all settlers are extremists and terrorists, and the obstacle to peace. (But on the point of Goldstein, why don&#039;t you ask &quot;treppenwitz&#039; David Bogner what he thinks of him, or countless other settlers).&lt;em&gt;To present settlers as just Israelis who happen to live over the Green Line is a gross oversimplification and ignores the many divisions between settlers and other Israelis that get covered in the press. * For example, you have even the right-wing PM Ariel Sharon proposing that Gaza be evacuated, but there are many settlers who oppose such an action -- this is the context in which the yellow (actually orange) star controversy came up. *&lt;/em&gt;I mentioned that settlers are generally observant and passionate people, and that the Settlement movement has made some bad decisions (such as the decision to wear the Stars). I did not deem it necessary to analyze the disengagement plan and the settlers opposition to it, in the context of my post. I kept the post very specific to the questions I outlined in bold. I can, of course, post about the disengagement plan at a later stage.&lt;em&gt;Also, the settlers do often violate Israeli law, such as when they expand beyond what the law permits, bulldoze Arab olive crops and get away with it, or quickly erect illegal outposts&lt;/em&gt;Again, I mentioned that some settlers do take things too far, without going into every instance of such acts. I never painted all settlers as perfect, upstanding citizens. And I certainly did not state or imply that &quot;all settlers are a buch of mensches who get a bad rap.&quot;I make no compunctions about the fact that my post was designed to portray settlers in a positive light, in order to counteract the negative publicity they are receiving. But I did not, as you suggest, whitewash the bad actions of some settlers, which have certainly led to some of the negative perceptions.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for your comments, Joe.</p><p>Allow me to tackle the points you have raised.</p><p><em>&#8220;Jews have historically lived there&#8221; &#8212; Hebron, sure. Gaza? I&#8217;m not so sure about that.&#8221;</em></p><p>Jews have historically lived in Gaza. I can provide you with many sources for this. <a href="http://www.acpr.org.il/cloakrm/clk164.html" rel="nofollow">Here&#8217;s</a> one.</p><p><em>the claim that these are traditionally Jewish areas contradicts your remark that some were built on previously inhabited land.</em></p><p>I think you misread my statement, since I never claimed this. Rather, I stated the exact opposite &#8211; the settlements were built on previously unoccupied land. Meaning unoccupied at the time the settlements were built.</p><p>By the way, all of Israel is traditionally Jewish land, even if there were other inhabitants in the land in the years between the Jews expulsion from this land, and the creation of the modern day settlements.</p><p><em>Yes, Israeli terrorists are &#8220;caught and charged&#8221;, but you don&#8217;t even mention Baruch Goldstein (!) and how he&#8217;s been beatified by many settlers. </em></p><p>The point of the post is not to mention all instances of the despicable actions of some settlers, but rather to counteract perceptions that all settlers are extremists and terrorists, and the obstacle to peace. (But on the point of Goldstein, why don&#8217;t you ask &#8220;treppenwitz&#8217; David Bogner what he thinks of him, or countless other settlers).</p><p><em>To present settlers as just Israelis who happen to live over the Green Line is a gross oversimplification and ignores the many divisions between settlers and other Israelis that get covered in the press. * For example, you have even the right-wing PM Ariel Sharon proposing that Gaza be evacuated, but there are many settlers who oppose such an action &#8212; this is the context in which the yellow (actually orange) star controversy came up. *</em></p><p>I mentioned that settlers are generally observant and passionate people, and that the Settlement movement has made some bad decisions (such as the decision to wear the Stars). I did not deem it necessary to analyze the disengagement plan and the settlers opposition to it, in the context of my post. I kept the post very specific to the questions I outlined in bold. I can, of course, post about the disengagement plan at a later stage.</p><p><em>Also, the settlers do often violate Israeli law, such as when they expand beyond what the law permits, bulldoze Arab olive crops and get away with it, or quickly erect illegal outposts</em></p><p>Again, I mentioned that some settlers do take things too far, without going into every instance of such acts. I never painted all settlers as perfect, upstanding citizens. And I certainly did not state or imply that &#8220;all settlers are a buch of mensches who get a bad rap.&#8221;</p><p>I make no compunctions about the fact that my post was designed to portray settlers in a positive light, in order to counteract the negative publicity they are receiving. But I did not, as you suggest, whitewash the bad actions of some settlers, which have certainly led to some of the negative perceptions.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
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