An Open Letter to Dov Bear (or Why I Read LGF)
July 13, 2005 | Aussie Dave | Comments 24
Dear Mr Bear,
You have made very clear on many occasions your contempt for the blog Little Green Footballs. You have called it racist, and insinuated that you have to be an Arab-hater to like reading it.
While I agree that a minority of commenters on that blog can be rather extreme, I would like to point out that many of your commenters aren’t angels either (especially when it comes to treating others with respect). Yet I would like to think that you don’t consider them to be representative of your own, personal opinions. Nor would you like to see others talking trash about your blog because of them.
Be that as it may, I find it curious that you don’t recognize the great good that LGF does. How many other blogs – Jewish and non-Jewish alike – have posts like this? How many other blogs even bother posting about terror attacks that occur in Israel, including the more underreported ones? I know you don’t. I guess in between making fun of George Bush, the Right, other bloggers, and Rabbis, there is no time to post about the murder of Jews in Israel.
I hope this makes it clear why I will continue to read and promote LGF as a worthy blog.
Filed Under: General
About the Author: An Australian immigrant to Israel, Aussie Dave has been blogging since early 2003.
The only thing that bothers me about this letter is you cherrypicked two very old posts of mine, and neglected to mention that we discussed at least one of those posts off line, a discussion in which you acknowledged and accepted that I was only kidding around.
Oh, and if you follow the link to where I alledgedly called him rascist, you’ll see I was concerned about Israel’s image and honor when I made that remark.
Finally, if this is an attempt to sic the mad minions of LGF on me and my blog, well, that’s not cool Dave.
For someone who has no compunctions about going after other bloggers and people with quite a bit of venom, you seem rather put back by my rather tame post, which was more about why I like LGF than about you.
Regarding your claim that we discussed one of the posts offline, I think you have things confused, We DID discuss a different post regarding a comment you made about a Jewish blogger, and I accepted your explanation that you may have been kidding. But not regarding the post I have linked to, and not in the sense of you saying “I am kidding when I call LGF a racist site.”
This doesn’t change my main point that LGF does more to further the cause of Israel and the Jews in the eyes of the world than most other blogs – including yours.
I don’t doubt that you have good intentions. That doesn’t make you correct in your assessment. I am pointing out why I think your’e wrong.
As for “sicing” anyone on you, sorry, not my style. I haven’t mentioned this post on LGF – why would I? This isn’t ad hominem. This is a sincere post.
Maybe you can answer this: how come you don’t post about the terror attacks in Israel? And don’t you acknowledge that LGF does much to highlight the plight of Israel and the Jews?
you seem rather put back by my rather tame post, which was more about why I like LGF than about you.
Not put back. Not at all. As I said, “The only thing that bothers me…” And we did discuss the post off line. You were in the middle of a family tragedy and you said something to the affect of “noramlly I have a good sense of humor” or something like that. I can dig up the email if you like.
How come I don’t post about terror attacks? Few reasons (1) Many blogs do that. Including you. (2) There are about 6 trillion other things I don’t post about. Life is short (3) My blog is about slaying golden cows, turning expectations upside down, and challenging conventional wisdom. Blogging about terror attacks doesn’t fit the mission statment.
And why don’t I acknowledge the good LGF does? Because I don’t want to draw peoples attention to the nasty comment section where Jews and nonJews act like animals and sully Israel and America’s good name by suggesting we’re all a bunch of haters. There are other reasons, but that’s probably the best one.
No need, Dov. I know the mail, which dealt with you joking about my blog description as “I read LGF and hate all Arabs.” Yes, I know u were kidding about me..I am now speaking solely of your comments against LGF, which are manifest not just from the post you are referring to, but also the comments I link to.
Again, this is about LGF and a response to those who bash..well, mainly you I guess!
Now about my question (see my other comments..)
Although DovBear’s views are not what I would consider right wing by any stretch of the imagination, I don’t think this is a fair post. To imply that the fact that he finds some fault with LGF denotes a lack of sympathy or compassion for Israel is really out of line. I can understand you wanting to show your appreciation for LGF’s unwavering support for Israel. I’m not sure you needed to cast aspersions on another blogger to do so. And though I didn’t find your original post completely objectionable, the attempt in your last comment to prove that DB doesn’t care about Israel because he doesn’t post about Israel’s terror attacks is obnoxious. DB cares about Israel as much as the rest of us. His views on the value, or lack thereof, of another blog does not change that.
I am now speaking solely of your comments against LGF, which are manifest
Manifest? Can you find more than 5?
Orthomom,
As one of the regular DB commenters, I am not surprised by your rather terse comments. It might pay to read my comments more carefully though.
Not only did I not say that DB doesn’t care about Israel, but I actually told him “I don’t doubt you have good intentions.” I just found it rich that he criticizes LGF and its commenters, without acknowledging the good.
As for DB’s lack of posts on Jews being murdered in Israel, I don’t think his lack of posts reflects an uncaring on his part. But I also think it is out of place to call a site “racist” that does bring Israel’s plight to the consciousness of so many people. And that was precisely my point.
It seems to me that lots of comments left on LGF are put there by people who wouldn’t make such fine friends. Following are some example. I certainly wouldn’t choose to associate with these people, and it embaresses me and worries that these people are thought of as “supporters of Israel.” Israel doesn’t need these sort of people on their side.
I don’t mean to cherrypick, but well, life is short, so here are some of the best of the best:
Now let’s get down to business. Either you’re with us or you’re against us. All muslims shall convert to a non-lethal theology or they will be killed. How’s that?
–pajamazon, LGF poster
subhumans, first time on 2 feet
round em all up, every friggin’ last one of them
unfortunately, I still think it will take even more violence from the Arabs before the West wakes up and goes savage on em
–sadhu, LGF poster
The lesson of 7/7, 3/11, and 9/11 is the only way for islam to reform is for islam to cease to exist.
–longtermmemmory, LGF poster
Its time for the President and PM Blair to come to the realisation that its time to save American and British lives and return our troops to their homes.
THEN NUKE THE FREAKIN AREA…MAKE IT A PARKING LOT FOR A THOUSAND YEARS! WIPE THE EARTH CLEAN OF THESE COWARDS!
–leagalbgl, LGF poster
See what I mean?
That’s cute. The fact that LGF gets racist commenters is not relevant, but the fact that I am a “regular DB commenter” makes me somehow unable to read your post and subsequent comments carefully. You may have prefaced your remark with the caveat of “I don’t doubt you have good intentions”, but the point you made definitely had implications of DB not supporting Israel as much as you think LGF does. If that wasn’t your intention, then why would you mention DB’s posting (or not) on the suicide bombings in Israel? If that wasn’t your implication, then why bring up a point that wasn’t even on the table? No one was debating DB’s views on Israel. We were debating whether LGF is a site whose positives outweigh the negative views presented by some of it’s commenters. You and DB can agree to disagree without your casting aspersions on him. I don’t like your whole M.O.
Just about every sentence of your post is a complete non-sequitur:
1. “As one of the regular DB commenters, I am not surprised by your rather terse comments.”
Many of DB’s commenters hold vastly different views from DB himself. The suggestion that a DB commenter is somehow not in a position to pass judgment on a criticism of DB is plain wrong.
2. “It might pay to read my comments more carefully though. Not only did I not say that DB doesn’t care about Israel, but I actually told him “I don’t doubt you have good intentions.” ”
The comment “I don’t doubt you have good intentions” pretty clearly implies that you do doubt he has good intentions, sort of like “not that there is anything wrong with that” suggests quite the opposite.
3. “But I also think it is out of place to call a site “racist” that does bring Israel’s plight to the consciousness of so many people. ”
What does one have to do with the other? Meir Kahane undoubtedly brought “Israel’s plight to the consciousness of so many people.” That did not make him any less of a racist and shouldn’t preclude us from calling him that.
But I also think it is out of place to call a site “racist” that does bring Israel’s plight to the consciousness of so many people. And that was precisely my point
And MY point is that telling the world about Israel’s troubles doesn’t excuse the viscious rascism present in his comment section. And, again, as someone who loves Israel, it greatly troubles me to have our supporters identified with such people.
No, the fact that u r a regular DB commenter, whose loyalty is not in question, makes your position on this predictable. Funny how I have not seen u comment on a lack of derech eretz on DB’s blog. Aspersions have been cast on my blog constantly in the comments section (without provocation, may I add) and you have never spoken up. So please..cry me a river. If u were consistent, I might actually take your comments more seriously. Champion of the underdog indeed..or should that be underbear.
Yes, I think LGF’s posts are more supportive of Israel than DBs. That is b/c LGF deals with the issues. DB prefers to focus on other issues more, as he described in a previous comment. I concede that this doesn’t mean he doesn’t privately support Israel. But the fact remains that I take issue with his comments about LGF, and their relative PUBLIC positions on Israel IS relevant, as far as I am concerned.
You have labelled the whole site as racist. If you mean to only brand some of the commenters as “racist”, then do so, without generalizing about the whole site.
Why? Is there some rule about use of the word “manifest” that I’m not aware of? Twice is enough for me. As you should know, once you put something out there, in public, on the internet (and especially more than once), it is manifest.
But if you want to clarify your position, now’s your chance.
1. True, but from what I have seen in the comments section on DB, the words lynch mob wouldn’t be out of place.
2. You said:
No. Actually it does not need to imply anything, b/c I said it straight out. “I don’t doubt that you have good intentions. That doesn’t make you correct in your assessment.” No casting aspersions on his intentions there.
3. Let me clarify. The site LGF does alot of good, and is not racist. Some of his commenters say extreme things. Does that make the whole site racist?
Dov,
I will spare you the embarassment of posting some of the comments I have seen on your site – comments which you have let pass without nary a rebuke or attempt at censorship.
“Aspersions have been cast on my blog constantly in the comments section (without provocation, may I add) and you have never spoken up. So please..cry me a river. If u were consistent, I might actually take your comments more seriously.”
UH, hello? This is not a discussion about aspersions cast on YOUR blog, in YOUR comments, about YOU, by YOUR readers. Trust me, DB’s readers do plenty of that to him, me included. This is about YOU casting aspersions on another blogger on your blog, with no provocations. Frankly, it makes me ill. Oh, and your comment about my not speaking up in your defense? Before yesterday I’d never read your blog, so don’t take my lack of defense personally. By the same token, I’m not big on sticking up for DB when he gets trashed in HIS blog’s comments section either, because that’s his turf. This, on the other hand, is not. Which is why I am here, wasting my time explaining something you don’t want to understand, preferring instead to presume me biased.
No, it is me who feels like I’m wasting my time trying to explain to you the point of my post and subsequent comments. You are insistent on accusing me of casting aspersions on your friend DB, while I insist I haven’t. So let me explain one more time and then you can go and be ill.
DB trashes LGF. I explain why I disagree, and even why LGF does more for the good name of Israel than DB. You and some other DB groupies decide I have cast aspersions on his good name. Interestingly enough, DB himself is not accusing me of this, but rather “cherry picking” my evidence of his anti-LGF ways. He also explains why he does not post about terror attacks in Israel, and I don’t continue on his case about that. At least HE is mature enough to know the difference between ad hominem attacks and criticism on a position he takes.
As for the lack of defence, what has you reading my blog have to do with reacting to disgusting comments on DB’s blog? Aspersions were cast on me over at DB’s blog (in the comments), and you, champion of the oppressed, had nothing to say. So excuse me for not taking you too seriously.
Quite frankly, I don’t see the point in us discussing this any further.
“As for the lack of defence, what has you reading my blog have to do with reacting to disgusting comments on DB’s blog? Aspersions were cast on me over at DB’s blog (in the comments), and you, champion of the oppressed, had nothing to say. So excuse me for not taking you too seriously. ”
Uh, check your comment, big guy. You said: “Aspersions have been cast on my blog constantly in the comments section (without provocation, may I add) and you have never spoken up.” What exactly does your comment have to do with the comments on DB’s blog? We were never discussing that. Good day.
Aspersions on my blog have been cast in the comments section of DBs blog. Is that better?
But I think I was less ambiguous when I said I don’t see the point in us discussing this any further.
I’ll explain very simply why LGF is bad for Israel. The blog provides a forum for nasty, fascist rascist people to vent their anger at Muslims and Arabs. When well-meaning people see this, when they see horrible and hateful comments about Rachel Corrie, for example, or about the whole of the Muslim world, for example, they make the mistake of presuming that anyone who supports Israel is alsnasty, fascist rascist . I’ve seen it happen. I know it happens.
Moreover, LGF’s comment section has given it a terrible reputation among the centirst and left leaning blogs. How does that help Israel? The people who need to be convinced of the rightness of Israel’s position are not reading LGF. That’s the chior. If they read LGF they already support Israel. The people who need to be convinced read the centrist and left leaning blogs, and among those blogs the name LGF – and by association any cause it champions – is mud.