The Bear Responds
Aussie Dave | Jul 14, 2005 | 9 comments
Despite the fact that some of his commenters were hell-bent on turning this into some kind of personal feud, I’ll give Dov credit for recognizing that I was attacking his position on an issue, and not him personally.
Having said that, I will respond when time permits.
Update: This is what Dov Bear had to say:
LGF’s comment section has become a forum for nasty, fascist rascist people who use their comments to vent anger and insuit at Muslims and Arabs and anyone else they don’t like.When well-meaning people visit LGF, it’s true they do see the blog’s latest report on the latest terrorist atrocity, but they also see horrible and hateful comments directed at the whole of the Muslim world. As a result, many make the mistake of presuming that anyone who supports Israel is also horrible and hateful. I’ve seen it happen. Are Israel’s interests really served by a blog that makes Israel’s supporters look like monsters? They aren’t monsters (obviously) but you wouldn’t know it from reading LGF.Moreover, LGF’s comment section has given it a terrible reputation among the centrist and left-leaning blogs. Does that help Israel? The people who need to be convinced of the rightness of Israel’s position are not LGF readers. LGF’s regualr readers are the chior. They already support Israel. The people who need to be convinced that Israel’s position is legitimate are reading the centrist and left leaning blogs and among those blogs the name LGF – and by association any cause it champions – is mud.
I just don’t see it this way. LGF highlights and discusses articles dealing with the truth about Israel. It reports on all the terrorist attacks occurring here. It expresses understanding for Israel’s fight against terror and desire for peace. It exposes the lies, propaganda, and hate emanating from the enemies of peace. And all of this is coming from one Charles Johnson, a non-Jew who’s support from Israel (as far as I am aware) stems from his intellectual honesty, and not from any fundamentalist religious belief – a fact I believe makes people less cynical of the site’s motives, and more willing to explore the issues.
While some of the commenters may go overboard, I don’t think that this necessarily negates the great work achieved by the blog itself.
For a start, thinking people can recognize that the views of a blog’s commenters don’t necessarily reflect the views of the blog owner him or herself. This is especially true in Charle’s case. He does not paint all Muslims with the same brush, although he does raise some questions about Islam. While one could argue that he should exercise more control over the comments, have you seen how many comments he gets? I doubt he would have the time.
Secondly, anyone approaching the issues earnestly will look at the facts, and not be unduly influenced by the rhetoric of supporters of either side. For instance, when LGF reports on a terrorist deliberately pumping bullets into a pregnant Jewish woman, I don’t think the fact that some understandably angry commenters shout out “Death to the Arabs” (something I don’t condone) will cause a new reader to be less revulsed by the terrorist’s actions, nor less sympathetic for the woman. And we all know there are thousands of such terrorists, and thousands of innocent Israeli victims. The reader might think that some commenters are taking things too far (the reader might also understand the commenters’ anger in light of the situation), but it won’t change the facts of the news story. And LGF is doing a great job bringing such stories to the forefront, while the mainstream media seeks to hide them, or report them in the context of tit-for-tat, morally equivalent violence.
Thirdly, not everyone looks at the comments anyway. For instance, I myself hardly delve into the comments, but do read all of the posts. I suspect there are many others like me.
I’m sorry. I just can’t see how a minority of commenters (yes, the commenters DB speaks of are in the minority) will cancel out the good work of the blog itself. This is especially true given that Charles is a supporter of Israel, and he does not come across as “horrible and hateful.” And at the end of the day, each visitor of LGF certainly reads Charles, and not necessarily every comment.
I also disagree with the contention that “The people who need to be convinced that Israel’s position is legitimate are reading the centrist and left leaning blogs and among those blogs the name LGF – and by association any cause it champions – is mud.” For a start, people who need to be convinced may not even be reading any blogs. They might find LGF through a google search, or by word of mouth. And while I think that it is true – especially for some left-leaning blogs – that LGF has a bad reputation, I believe that anyone willing to approach the issues openly and honestly will visit LGF anyway. If someone has already made up their mind on LGF – based on heresay – then chances are they have also made up their mind on Israel – based on heresay.
About the Author
An Australian immigrant to Israel, Aussie Dave has been blogging since early 2003.Filed Under: General
I like Dov’s blog , read it from time to time and he’s definitely behind Israel’s cause , as you have mentioned.
But I don’t think Dov gives enough credit to people’s intelligence – you ‘re right;most people can see past the remarks made by some commenters. Those that cant, well, they are not going to be convinced anyway – They could be shown the truth in black and white and still choose to ignore. dAWK is a prime example.
As far as I’m concerned it’s all about being fair and open –minded. After seeing many comments from ‘leftist’ bloggers or the like. I’m convinced if anyone is myopic; they are.
What irks me is that their ‘friends’ can do no wrong. I can’t recall any example that readily comes to mind, of where they admit any wrong doing by those they support. It seems any time an atrocity takes place they wheel out the same apologist rhetoric and try to project the blame elsewhere.
There is still no real acceptance by many ‘lefties’, that as you say “pumping bullets into a pregnant Jewish woman” – is really a vile and unacceptable crime. Its all about Israel all the time.
What irks them though, is that it is they who hold the minority views. And because the majority don’t believe them its all because of a host of conspiracies. The joke is that propaganda machine is working for them and they still cant convince everyone and nor will they.
dont know what’s wrong with damn fonts.didnt show up in the preview.
Its not fair at all people to throw mud at LGF because of the commenters.
If those critics of LGF were ran a blog as succesful and popular with over a thousand comments a day, then they surely would hate to be judged by the worst and most vulgar comments on their blog.
I myself have been a daily reader of LGF for 3 years. But I hardly read or leave comments there as I am a busy guy blogging from work and only spend 5 minutes there.
I’ve paid close attention to Charles’ blog and how he presents news and he certainly sets himself very high standards. Whilst it is clear that the information/news/stories he puts forward is quite obviously selective, he makes his blog a worthwhile source by not editorialising, spinning or ignoring the truth.
I’m sure that LGF’s leftwing and politically correct critics think the site is populated by Arab hating rednecks and bigots. Well perhaps there are a few of them in the comments. But once again, I’m not discussing the value of his comments section, its his actual posts that are invaluable for one outstanding reason.
They fill the void that the politically correct media create. LGF often shows examples that are outrageous, barbaric and shock our Western values no matter which side of politics you are on. This should continue to be its primary job in the future.
The media so often ignore foiled terrorist attacks. They so often avoid mentioning the religion of those involved. They so often ignore or spin stories of rampant anti-semitism in the middle east. They so often avoid the backward oppressive mentality in many middle eastern states that treats women as 2nd class citizens. They so often label violent or radical Marxist/Islamist groups as peace activists or moderate community leaders.
LGF fills the gaping void created by the media. Any person with an interest in the war on terror, the biggest issue of our times, would need this information to make informed judgements.
I will admit that since last year’s US elections, Charles has been getting a bit too political with some of his posts. I think the primary role of LGF should remain as highlighting news that the mainstream media avoid.
When LGF starts to critique other blogs and many Democrats (as easy as a target that moonbats like Howard Dean and Al Gore are), I think it conflates US political commentary with other hard news and distracts from the bigger issues.
I am “left leaning” (a member of the vast majority of American Jews that voted for Kerry). I am also a strong supporter of Israel.
Left or right is not the issue in the Arab Israeli conflict. It simply does not break along these lines. In fact, I find it quite offensive that some of the blogs to the right of center seem to assume that support of Israel is a right wing cause. It is not. America hosts the second largest Jewish community in the world. About 80 percent of us are left leaning. The American Jewish community has supported Israel from the start and continues to do so through thick and thin. We lobby our government, write letters to the editor, and send large sums of money to different Israeli causes.
On the Arab Israeli conflict, we see in the press horrible distortions of fact, and spin on events that can make you dizzy and sick. I’ve always felt that the areas of advantage that supporters of Israel have over the Palestinian apologists are intelligent discourse, and shear weight of fact.
When I looked at the comments in LGF I was shocked. I saw stupidity, and spin worthy of a Palestinian press release. This does the cause no good. We have to take the high road if we are to succeed in stemming the tide of world antisemitism. It is the only road we have.
Stan
I tried reading LGF because everybody gushed about it so much but I just didn’t love it like everyone else does, in large part due to the commenters. After a while they just got so grating that it annoyed me, so I didn’t bother coming around anymore. *shrug*
I certainly don’t blame the blog since they can’t exactly control the comments (without policing them constantly or shutting the comments off altogether) but it does detract from the blog and the quality of the message. If someone were to go to the blog for information or an understanding on a matter…. and then sees what kind of people support that blog… it might devalue the blog in that person’s eyes.
I read lgf on most days and rarely open the comments. Charles does a nice job but has suffered a great disservice at the hands of his commenters.
DB ought to try reading it without opening the comment threads .
Why doesn’t LGF just shut down the comments? I know it would radically change the blog, but it would quiet most critics and in the long run would probibly enhance the quality of the amazing blog.
You would be suprised about a shift to the right in americans on israeli politics, if you look at the many polls (maybe not the ZOA one, becuase that has much bias) there are many American Jews which are Anti-Disengagement, which is one indicator of political affilation in current Israeli politics.
I like LGF, but I rather dislike some of the comments put there. I just don’t like being labelled a “euroweenie”, “eurowuss”, or just a plain “euro”, or being verbally abused for stating the following; that not all Europeans are left-wingers. I like the blog as it brings up a lot of interesting stuff as previously mentioned. But a number of the comments are abusive.
I am also a daily reader of LGF. You do not see the comments unless you open the comment sections specifically. So nobody can possibly mistake Charles’ writings for the comments or vice versa.
People who read and believe everything they read at left-leaning blogs are at least as fixed in their position about Israel as LGF readers could be.
I do not follow Dov’s argument at all.