It all stems from the perception of both arabs and most of the world, that Palestinians are the oppressed party. Thus, following this train of thought, it is only natural for them to oppose the oppressors, it is only natural for random Palestinians to snap and go on a shooting spree or whatever.

And I agree that they are oppressed. But they are oppressed because of their sheer blindness, stupidity and the historically proven inability to organize into anything else than a squad of thugs.

As for the passages you’re citing, it’s all nonsense.

Let’s pretend I have a book describing how people should conduct themselves, and in that book I say that Koreans should be treated with utmost respect.

Then a couple of chapters later I describe how I personally slaughtered an entire tribe of Koreans, murdered all the men and most of the children and raped their widows throughout the night; in addition I make it clear that the only way I could do this was by establishing a peace agreement which I happily violated.

Now which part do you think is going to have the most impact? The part where I mouth off laws and abstract concepts, or the part where I describe what I actually did?

Disclaimer: I’ll admit that I didn’t read through the Koran, most of what I’m saying is based on hearsay, and if I’m wrong I’ll be glad to retract it.

-ron

Neither. I just didn’t quote EVERY instance of the Quran mentioning the Children of Israel.

The Quran mentions both exiles. I don’t think anybody questions the exiles.

Perhaps you should read earlier as well as later verses as well:

5.12. Allah did aforetime take a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we appointed twelve captains among them. And Allah said: “I am with you: if ye (but) establish regular prayers, practise regular charity, believe in my apostles, honour and assist them, and loan to Allah a beautiful loan, verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to gardens with rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he hath truly wandered from the path or rectitude.”

5.13. But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.

It is not unknown, I think, that the Quran describes Allah as all-forgiving. And the punishment for the sins of the Children of Israel was exile. Twice.

5.69. Those who believe (in the Qur’an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

5.70. We took the covenant of the Children of Israel and sent them apostles, every time, there came to them an apostle with what they themselves desired not - some (of these) they called impostors, and some they (go so far as to) slay.

5.71. They thought there would be no trial (or punishment); so they became blind and deaf; yet Allah (in mercy) turned to them; yet again many of them became blind and deaf. But Allah sees well all that they do.

There were two exiles because the Children of Israel became “blind and deaf” [to the word of Allah]. And Allah, presumably the all-forgiving forgave both.

And the Land of Israel is mentioned again:

17.101. To Moses We did give Nine Clear Signs: As the Children of Israel: when he came to them, Pharaoh said to him: “O Moses! I consider thee, indeed, to have been worked upon by sorcery!

17.102. Moses said, “Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!”

17.103. So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him.

17.104. And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, “Dwell securely in the land (of promise)”: but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd.

The Quran (correctly) predicted that the Children of Israel would return before the end of time.

When the Muslims took Jerusalem (from the Persians), the Caliph even announced the end of the exile and invited the Jews to come back.

And they came, although it took another 1200 years while the country changed effective owners a few times.

The Caliph himself was dismayed at the state of the site of the Temple.

You see, I read the entire thing.

The Quran does indeed not call on Muslims to kill infidels, but does categorically state that the Land of Israel was given to the Children of Israel by Allah Himself.

So, yes, I think our friend Gail should read the Quran. It might surprise him.

As for your intentions, I don’t understand what that was about. You are adding no new information as the exiles as punishment were known (and are also understood as such in Judaism). And the question of which MAN is supposed to decide on Allah’s behalf whom to forgive and when is a question I myself find blasphemous.

The Quran just says to forgive them, not to forgive them under certain circumstances.

Either way 9:29 speaks of pagans mentioned in 9:28, those who “believe not in Allah or the last day”. This concerns even the Children of Israel (”People of the Book”) as some of them could hold pagan beliefs. But the Jewish religion does believe in Allah and the last day.

Judaism is a “true” religion according to the constitution of Medina written by Muhammed himself.

Whatever people might think Muhammed had planned regarding dhimmi status and special taxes, he certainly didn’t apply those rules when he actually did run an Islamic state, in which Jews, as a “People of the Book” and followers of the same G-d and a true religion, had the same rights as Muslims.

Andrew Brehm Says:
July 4th, 2008 at 12:08 pm

“Read the Koran”

So?

So, Mr. Brehm, you’re either very selective or you tired too soon to continue reading the remaining verses in their full and final context:

005.032
On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

005.033
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

Savvy?

You might also want to go back and read verses 12 and 13 in the same Sura. Speaking of the very same verse 13 in Sura 5, Robert Spencer notes:

“According to Allusi in his Ruhul Ma’ani, this forgiveness should be extended only to those Jews who become Muslims or agree to pay the jizya and accept subservient dhimmi status in accord with 9:29. Tabari, on the other hand, suggests that v. 13 was abrogated by the commands to wage jihad against the unbelievers that came later in Muhammad’s career.”

So……….. do you prefer Allusi or Tabari?

Actually, in my experience the world thinks both.

“And [remember] when Moses said to his people: ‘O my people, call in remembrance the favour of God unto you, when he produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave to you what He had not given to any other among the peoples. O my people, enter the Holy Land which God has assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin.’” [Qur'an 5:20-21]

So?

-ron

Best regards,
Gail