The Day In Israel: Sunday Aug 29th, 2010

According to Egyptian security sources as reported by the palestinians Ma’an News, Egypt intercepted a shipment of at least 190 anti-aircraft missiles in Sinai – probably destined for Gaza.

gaza smuggling tunnelEgyptian police raided arms depots in the Sinai Peninsula on Saturday, which held weapons ready to be smuggled into Gaza, Egyptian security sources said.

Sources said three weapons depots were discovered in central Sinai. One cache containing 100 anti-aircraft shells was uncovered in Al-Hasana, and another, containing 90 of the shells, was discovered in Ad-Daqqaq. A third cache, holding 1,500 bullets of various sizes, was found in Nakhl.

Several weapons caches were discovered in cities bordering the southern Gaza Strip. Ten anti-tank landmines were found three kilometers from the border in Rafah, and two stores of machine guns and explosives were discovered in Sheikh Zwayyid.

Egyptian police also seized 50 kilograms of hashish in forests in Rafah, and detained several drug dealers in El-Arish, sources added.

Meanwhile, there are those in the media who would have us believe the only things being smuggled are “happy pills.”

Updates (Israel time; most recent at top)

8:22PM: The palestinians are calling the upcoming World Jewish Congress a “provocation” – because it is being held during Ramadan.

The Islamic-Christian Front for defending Jerusalem says the 14th World Jewish Congress, which is set to be held on Wednesday in Jerusalem, is a blatant provocation to the Arab and Islamic nation as a whole.

“Not only does the [Israeli] occupation not at all care about the feelings of Muslims in Palestine and the world, but now deliberately shows direct prejudice to the religious feelings of the Palestinians and Muslims in general, as evidenced by the conference deliberately held during the holy month of Ramadan,” said Dr. Hassan Khater, Secretary General of the Islamic-Christian Front.

“In these heavy days of black memories against Islamic holy sites, beginning with the forty first anniversary of the burning of Al-Aqsa, the sixteenth anniversary of the Ibrahimi Mosque massacre, the outrageous attack on the Ain Silwan mosque, and preventing worshippers from reaching Al-Aqsa, even in the month of Ramadan, comes the brutal Zionist decision,” he added.

The Secretary-General warned that the conference is not a regular conference for global Jewish leaders, but a dangerous meeting to develop a defense strategy for the Israeli state at home and overseas. Several papers on how to go into electronic warfare to defend the Israeli state and confront the wave of doubts over the legitimacy of its existence on the international level will be reviewed among other papers in the conference.

A meeting of Jewish leaders from all parts of the world in the heart of Jerusalem comes at a time when many Muslim leaders and scholars are unable to hold even one serious conference to protect the Holy City, Khater explained.

I wasn’t aware that Jews were obligated to keep Ramadan as well. Go figure.

Mind you, given that the Arabs started a war on our holiest day of Yom Kippur, I’d say we are not even close to being even.

Meanwhile, I have been invited to attend the World Jewish Congress, so will be sure to update you all on any new “brutal Zionist decisions” to come out of it.

8:08PM: A response to terror enabler Lauren Booth’s letter to Israel.

7:56PM: Predictably, the palestinians have picked up on the statement of Rav Ovadia Yosef, attempting to suggest it is indicative of the Israeli government’s views.

Chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat on Sunday slammed remarks by the spiritual leader of Israel’s leading ultra-Orthodox party, who said the Palestinians should “perish”, saying that it was paramount to incitement to genocide.

Erekat called on the Israeli government to denounce the remarks by Israel’s former chief rabbi Ovadia Yosef, and to take action against racist remarks by other elected officials. He also criticized Israel for allowing the incident to pass without condemnation.

Yosef had said during his weekly Shabbat sermon that the Palestinians, namely Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, should perish from the world. Yosef, a founder of the Shas Party, also described Palestinians as evil, bitter enemies of Israel.

“All these evil people should perish from this world … God should strike them with a plague, them and these Palestinians,” Yosef had said.

The 89-year-old is a respected religious scholar but is also known for vitriolic comments about Arabs, secular Jews, liberals, women and gays, among others.

“Is this how the Israeli government prepares its public for a peace agreement?” Erekat said, days before Israeli and Palestinian leaders were scheduled to meet in Washington for the launch of renewed direct peace negotiations.

“While the PLO is ready to resume negotiations in seriousness and good faith, a member of the Israeli government is calling for our destruction,” Erekat said. “It is an insult to all our efforts to advance the negotiations process.”

Erekat called on Israel “do more about peace and stop spreading hatred” and said Yosef’s comments could be placed within the larger context of Israel’s “policy against a Palestinian state” such as settlement expansion, home demolitions, among other things.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Sunday distanced himself from Yosef’s remarks, but stopped short of a condemnation. “Rabbi Ovadia Yosef’s remarks do not reflect Netanyahu’s views, nor do they reflect the stance of the Israeli government,” Netanyahu’s office said in a statement.

“Israel plans to take part in peace negotiations out of a desire to advance toward a peace agreement with the Palestinians that will end the conflict and ensure peace, security and good neighborly relations between the two peoples,” the statement continued.

Propaganda expert Erekat is once again showing his adeptness at turnspeak and exaggeration.

Erekat is employing turnspeak – defined as “a cognitive technique of propaganda where you attack someone and then turn it around 180 degrees and claim they attacked you” – since it is the palestinians who are constantly inciting hatred against Jews and Israel, and it is their leadership who are leading the effort. The palestinian leadership have also never negotiated in seriousness and good faith, and constantly called for our destruction. It is these very things that Erekat is now accusing Israel.

As for exaggeration, Ovadia Yosef’s comments – as offensive as they may be to many – were not tantamount to calls for genocide. He was not asking people to carry out his wishes, but rather expressing his desire that G-d should strike the palestinians.

3:00PM: This is the Jerusalem Post’s generic error page.

No joke.

jpost error

Thanks to Shy Guy for the heads up.

1:35PM: Gilad Shalit has turned 24, his 5th birthday in captivity.

1:00PM: Cartoon of the day:

obama cartoonHat tip: Daniel

11:30AM: Israeli model/entertainer Noa Tishby proves she’s not just a pretty face.

“We’ve been living with terrorism for years,” Noa Tishby says. “We know the mentality. We know what radical Islam is about. We understand it. But so many people don’t.”

It’s easy for young, beautiful actresses in a town of young, beautiful people to blend into a crowd—but Tishby stands out as a proud Israeli woman, speaking with a passionate intelligence about the country she loves.

“I’m coming at this from a different world, a different view—not from politics, but from a straightforward understanding about the way things are,” Tishby says.

Even as a young teenager in Israel, Tishby adored the process of creation. A star at a young age for her singing voice and her acting talent, Tishby was always interested in the production side of creating and telling stories, not just what happened on the stage.

“I still remember calling up the local press people and saying ‘hi, this is Noa, you don’t know me, but I want to talk to you about our show,’” she says. “It’s different in the entertainment industry here in the States, but in some ways, it’s still the same.”

Tishby has become a groundbreaking exporter, adapting successful entertainment from Israel to the U.S. market. Besides her acting roles on television and the bigscreen, she’s a co-executive producer of the first Israeli television show to become an American TV series: the award-winning drama In Treatment, starring Gabriel Byrne and populated with a host of superb character actors (it began as BeTipul in Israel). Her production company, Noa’s Arc, owns the rights to several shows in Israel and the United States, and is focused on projects that feed into that export spirit—including one of the first musicals she was in as a child, on the life of King David (a hit in Israel, it ran for twelve years).

Yet what sets Tishby apart is not just her unique career track, but her straightforward and outspoken views on international politics and the Middle East—views that she shares via her columns for The Huffington Post and on her blog.

In the current celebrity culture, Tishby knows this openness about her views can come as a surprise to people.

“I’m not an expert,” Tishby says, “I’m just saying what I think and what I know from experience, what I grew up with and hope others will understand.”

Tishby says that while many of her friends consider themselves knowledgeable about the world they live in – “they really are educated people,” she adds – but have little knowledge of the truth about Israel and the reality of life in the Middle East. She tells the story of another young woman in the industry who was surprised she didn’t have to wear a head-covering.

“There’s just a complete lack of knowledge there,” Tishby says. “Before I came to the states, I thought ‘of course the world knows how modern we are here, why wouldn’t they?’ I assumed it was obvious… Instead, I found a disappointing number of people think of it as all one big mush. Afghanistan, Israel, Saudi Arabia, as if it’s all the same… It’s a lack of understanding about how progressive Israel is, and how much human suffering and cruelty there is under the systems of nations whose views some people reflexively support.”

Tishby is a progressive, avowedly so—but her frustration with the media’s acceptance of spoon-fed storylines has led her to be more outspoken about her views.

“Again and again, we see this double standard. Davutoglu calls the flotilla their 9/11,” Tishby said. “But how many Kurds did the Turk kill in the last few years?”

On a recent trip to Gaza, Tishby was surprised to find that one group of friends who share her views had no knowledge of Gilad Shalit.

“He’s been rotting with Hamas for four years, he’s held in complete confinement, he’s kidnapped, not even a prisoner of war, with no visitors from the United Nations and no contact from the outside world,” said Tishby. “And yet people want to talk to me about the Geneva Conventions?”

Tishby’s frustrations regarding the coverage of the flotilla incident are still palpable—she thinks it exemplifies how Israel works and how the enemies of Israel are thinking and adapting to the new media environment.

“Not all the people on the flotilla knew how they were going to be used, but the leadership certainly did,” said Tishby. “Those images and videos were pushed online almost immediately, used to define the incident.”

She strongly believes there needs to be a more sophisticated response not just from Israel but among her supporters to push back against these storylines and keep people informed of the truth.

“Within Israel, I think people don’t see how skewed the view is outside. Israel is being looked at with a magnifying glass. When Israel responds, it’s very deliberate, but that also slows things down,” Tishby said. “We need to create a nexus of information. Distributing that information real-time, will take a great deal of work—I think something along those lines needs to exists, and needs to be something that’s accessible around the world, moving at the speed people need today.”

Tishby favors a two state solution, and feels the progress in Ramallah is real. She points to Vice President Joe Biden’s recent appearance on Charlie Rose, where he said the current conflict “would end tomorrow if Hamas agreed to form a government with the Palestinian Authority on the conditions the international community has set up.”

“He’s a centrist, and I think he understands this,” said Tishby. “And he couldn’t be more right. I wish more people understood what is obvious to Israelis—that the sponsorship of Hamas and Hezbollah is connected intrinsically with the sponsorship of Al Qaeda, the bombings in Bali, Madrid, London, Tel Aviv—they never make the connection.”

Others have urged Tishby to consider taking up her own political career, but she says that’s not in the offing—for now.

“Being in the entertainment industry, being an actress and producer, altering people’s views—not just on politics, or Israel—is something that moves me,” said Tishby. “I’m taking this road for now, and later on, who knows?”

Tishby does think that there are still ways to tell this story to the American people. She is working on projects that can tell this story in innovative ways, bringing the truth about her experience and the experiences of other Israelis into American lives not through the news headlines but through the storytelling of Hollywood.

Her aim is not necessarily to convince the viewer of Israel’s rightness—“ I do not support the Israeli government all the time, I think we should do whatever it takes to have a peace agreement , stop the settlements immediately and make tough decisions. Of course no nation is right about everything,” but she wants to cause many people to reexamine the way they think about Israel, to learn more and decide for themselves.

“Israel is on the front line of a global conflict, a war that pits a medieval approach to human rights, an authoritarian way of controlling how we live, against societies built on the freedom of men and women,” Tishby says. “My issue is not with people who decide to support or not support Israel—it’s with people who are aligning themselves with people who, if the political left really looked at what they are doing, stand for nothing in common with their aims. All I am trying to do is to get people to reexamine the reality of what’s happening, to reconsider their preconceptions, and to see the truth—it’s not always black and white.”

That is not to say that I agree with all of her views, but it is obvious to me that she has a better understanding of the conflict than most.

9:15AM: Tell us how you really feel, Rabbi.

Senior Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, in his weekly lecture on Saturday night, said that he hope Palestinian Authority chief Mahmoud Abbas and the people he represents would disappear. “May Abu Mazen and all those evil people be utterly destroyed. May G-d strike them, and the evil Palestinians, with a plague,” he said.


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About Aussie Dave

An Aussie immigrant to Israel, Aussie Dave is founder and managing editor of Israellycool, one of the world's most popular pro-Israel blogs (and the one you are currently reading) He is a happy family man, and a lover of steak, Australian sports and girlie drinks

Facebook Comments

  • juvanya

    4 out of 5 gazans are on food stamps, but they can afford cigarettes and happy pills…

    • walt kovacs

      which makes them no different than the majority of those on assistance here in the states

      so when is someone gonna send a flotilla into california?

      • Michael Zvi krumbein

        Now THAT is an excellent idea.

  • Jim from Iowa

    So I take it that Rabbi Ovadia Yosef is opposed to a negotiated settlement and a two-state solution. Isn't this rabbi head of Shas and isn't Shas part of the ruling coalition headed by PM Netanyahu who is participating in a negotiated settlement with Abbas and doesn't Netnayahu say he is for a two-state solution? Have I got this right? I've got to sit down; my head is spinning from trying to understand Israeli politics.

    • Shy Guy

      On what do you base almost all of your assumptions above? ROY didn't say anything in the article for or against a negotiated settlement or this solution or that.

      For the record, I am very much NOT a fan of ROY, SHAS or any of their politics. A time will come when they will all pay for the disasters and the destruction which they have caused the Jewish Nation.

      • juvanya

        Who do you vote for?

        • Shy Guy

          Likud. We are long-time members of Manhigut Yehudit. Unfortunately there's not much that can be done when Netanyahu and Co. highjack a party and simply change the rules mid-game.

          • juvanya

            I was guessing youd be a Likud hawk after that comment. Feiglin man?

            • Michael Zvi krumbein

              That's Manhigut Yehudit. Of course the problem is that it really waters down the religious vote. (My wife also voted for Likud, BTW.)

              • juvanya

                They can always leave the party.

                • Michael Zvi krumbein

                  That goes against the whole point of Manhigut Yehudit. Of course, a lot of people just vote for it in the primary and for someone else in the general. My wife did the opposite.

                  You know Netanyahu got the Likud Central committee to postpone elections for their own replacement? Even though they were elected before Kadima broke off? I would be surprised if he is nominated again. I wonder whomelse there is?

                  • juvanya

                    Friend of mine says Feiglin.

                    • Michael Zvi krumbein

                      That would be fascinating, but I don't see where he could get the votes. (Maybe shy guy knows better.)

                      And, of course, the press would demagogue it so he would lose. This is why the government hasn't fallen yet – they are pretty sure they would get Tsippy or Mofaz.

                      Which is upsetting. My company just stopped letting us go into a vacation deficit. I NEED another vacation day – anyone out there know how to bring down the government?

            • Shy Guy

              I am a national Torah observant Jew who finds enough in common with the main membership body of the Likud to join them and not isolate myself to some sectarian group or party.

              • Michael Zvi krumbein

                It's hard to get more "sectarian" than Manhigut Yehudit. But at any rate, I think we've learned that to depend on a major party for religious issues is like depending on the U.S. for our security.

                That being said, it's always been in our interest to attack the matter from many points. I do like a number of the candidates, particularly that college student.

                But simply from a nationalist standpoint, what have you done to limit the depradations of Barak and Netantahu? At the end of the day, it's Shas that's held the line (such as it is) in Jerusalem. Suppose all of the National Religious had voted for one list – we might not be in this mess.

                • Shy Guy

                  It's hard to get more "sectarian" than Manhigut Yehudit.

                  Really? You mean like:


                  That was simple!

                  Manhigut's members consist of everyone from all over the Jewish and global spectrum. In many ways, so does a large part of the citizenry who are Likud members.

                  But simply from a nationalist standpoint, what have you done to limit the depradations of Barak and Netantahu? At the end of the day, it's Shas that's held the line (such as it is) in Jerusalem.

                  SHAS brought you Oslo.

                  And I had no idea that Jerusalem is where the line should be.

                  Put on your thinking cap.

                  Suppose all of the National Religious had voted for one list – we might not be in this mess.

                  You would simply hear louder screams from the opposition bleachers. That is not Manhigut's goal. It is also not Manhigut's goal to be a capitulating coalition member.

                  • Michael Zvi krumbein

                    Shas brought us Oslo? Heck, some of the leadership of the Gush was for Oslo at first, until we all realized it wasn't working.

                    Jerusalem is the only place the line IS being drawn. Is your faction doing ANTYTHING? (I am asking sincerely.) Barak is running wild over the territories, jailing Hesder Yeshiva students, going beyond even the freeze – what have you done to stop this?

                    I wish you all success (aside from the goal itself, I find B'sheva much more inclusive than Makor Rishon), but I think you are tilting at windmills. If you want to sacrifice for principle, you can vote for the NU.

                    • Shy Guy

                      Shas brought us Oslo?"

                      Yes (in Hebrew).

                      They also brought us the Targil Ha'masriach (also in Hebrew).

                      It is Elul. I cannot say what I want to say about this party and all of those who lead and run it.

                      what have you done to stop this?

                      No less than you have.

                      Or are you at the point of picking up a gun?

                      (aside from the goal itself, I find B'sheva much more inclusive than Makor Rishon)

                      What do these papers have to do with the price of tea in China?

                      If you want to sacrifice for principle, you can vote for the NU.

                      I am dedicated to tactic, not just principle. When I go back to only being concerned for the educational allotments to my children's (grandchildren's) school system, I'll go back to voting for some rinky dinky party which has that high on its agenda.

                    • Michael Zvi krumbein

                      Accirding to the opinion piece you linked to, Rav Yosef had Shas support Oslo I because he thought it would save Jewish lives. I can understand why the horrible outcome would get you upset, but he was far from the only one to make that mistake.

                      Actually, I don't have kids. I am concerned about my fellow citizens. My point was that this way you accomplish neither – with the exception of the fact that having a number of religious people in Likud and Lieberman's party probably moderates things. If even when you are IN the Likud and you can't stop these things, then what is the point? If the Dati Leumi would all vote together, their party would no longer BE dinky. (Please note this would destroy Shas, but I do not really care that much about ideology.)

                      I feel about MY the way I feel about the two-state solution. It would be wonderful if it could work. I hope you prove me wrong.

                    • Shy Guy

                      Accirding to the opinion piece you linked to, Rav Yosef had Shas support Oslo I because he thought it would save Jewish lives.

                      Then they should have voted for it – not abstained.

                      Open your eyes.

                      I can understand why the horrible outcome would get you upset, but he was far from the only one to make that mistake.

                      Did they ever take responsibility? Did anyone ever resign? Did anyone ever apologize (not that will bring much comfort to the 1000s of dead, crippled and displaced)?

                      Open your eyes.

                      I feel about MY the way I feel about the two-state solution. It would be wonderful if it could work. I hope you prove me wrong.

                      Go review an entire 62 years of the history of religious coalition partnerships and see where that got to in the long run. Nowhere.

                      If you want to unite, you need masses of people and common values and goals which unite them. You will never find that in a religious party by definition.

                      Good luck with the same old way of thinking.

                    • Michael Zvi krumbein

                      Oh, I was going by the article you gave me, which implied they had voted for it. The Rosh Yeshiva of Har Etzion also supported Oslo I at first, as did Rabbi Riskin. And I don't understand what good resigning would do.

                      I think your theory reminds me of that of Oslo – we have to do something, even if it will probably do more harm than good. Just like with Oslo, maybe there isn't anything to be done, until the hearts of the people are turned – and I don't think anything political is going to do that.

                      A good, united, Dati Leumi party could get most of the Shas votes – you could get 18 seats perhaps, maybe more, with the Likud and religious YB voters.

                      I wrote here how upset I was at the anti-democratic coup that Netanyahu pulled. But suppose he had not, and ignoring the fact that a lot of those votes were from people who weren't going to vote for Likud – what percentage did you get?

                      I honestly wish you well. Since my wife DID vote for Likud, I am going to try get her registered so she can vote for some of your candidates.

    • Shy Guy

      And if you want to give us your take of who's opposed to what, make sure you read this, too.

      • Jim from Iowa

        more homework from you…ok I read it and believe what the author says. Palestinians attitudes of embracing violence against Israel is the major obstacle to a peaceful negotiated settlement resulting in a two-state solution. I've been saying this in one way or another for some time now, Shy Guy. But I don't think it is particularly helpful when the leader of a party of the ruling coalition wishes the destruction of those with whom you're about to negotiate.

        • Shy Guy

          I don't think there's anything to negotiate about or anyone to negotiate with.

          ROY is simply stating the fact that Abbas, the holocaust denier which he is, is a perpetual liar in everything else as well.

          Most people are not interested in buying used cars from known swindlers. ROY is quite rational in this regard. You're not.

          • Jim from Iowa

            I'm rational enough to know that talking is better than killing. Sitting down with a guy like Abbas trying to settle some differences peacefully is preferable to seeking his death through military means. I don't want you to erect statues or name squares in his honor in Israel. It seems you and Rabbi Yosef see the solution as some kind of John Wayne movie with buckets of blood pouring out of people's heads. Endlessly.

            • Shy Guy

              What a non-realistic generalization. Here. Let King Solomon sum it up for you:

              1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
              2 A time to be born, and a time to die;
              a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
              3 A time to kill, and a time to heal;
              a time to break down, and a time to build up;
              4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
              5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together;
              a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
              6 A time to seek, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
              7 A time to rend, and a time to sew;
              a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
              8 A time to love, and a time to hate;
              a time for war, and a time for peace.

              And you thought Ecclesiastes was for the Byrds!

              [youtube iUT4QpHcWGI youtube]

              • anony

                I would not support that song. The original composer from the group donates money to the extreme leftwing Free Palestine type of groups each time it is played.

                • Shy Guy

                  Thanks for the heads-up.

            • Michael Zvi krumbein

              One should recall that Rav Yosef (who is not a politician, and I don't think he generally speaks as one) is Iraqi; he speaks Arabic, I presume, and understands the mentatlity better than you or I. Plus, he represents refugees from the Moslem world, which means they have a little more of a right to their feelings than you or I.

              That said, I think he would welcome a peaceful settlement; after all, the other side of Jews from that region is that they feel more at home in the greater Middle East than we do. But I don't think anybody ever accused him of being stupid.

              And no, Shas isn't my party, nor is he my rabbi, although his place in the development of Jewish law is pretty secure.

            • Michael Zvi krumbein

              OK, Abbas sets up a state. What type of state will it be? Will it be democratic? Will it continue its war to destroy Israel?

              Given the current evidence, the answers appear to be no and yes, respectively.

              I'm sorry, I said I didn't care what you thought. but you are always so frustratingly near logic, and then you go off chasing double rainbows. (What is all of that double rainbow stuff, anyway?)

              Will the ghost of Chaimberlain ever be put to rest?

    • Michael Zvi krumbein

      I have only what it says here, so I don't know what the original said, and I'm not sure how to parse it (does it mean Palestinians are evil or only those that are evil). I do no that his words have been miscontrued before – that's why I cancelled my subscription to the Weekly Standard. It happens to Modern Orthodox rabbis too – various New York publications make a hobby out of taking Rav Herchel Schachter's lectures out of context. (Rav Schachter is a true scholar and gentleman, and basically apolitical. You could do that with any Talmud class.)

      At any rate, we are before Rosh Hashana, where the prayers talk about the destruction of wicked governments. All "Palestinian" governments call us the "enemy". What is so radical about the Chief Rabbi emeritus asking God to destroy our enemies?

      • Michael Zvi krumbein

        "And all of the evil in its entirely will disappear like smoke, when you remove the government of iniquity from the Earth." (High Holy Day prayers)

        Indeed, if the Arab governments, including the PA, would stop stirring the pot, we could live together in peace. But Judaism forbids relying on miracles.

  • Jim from Iowa

    I was more a James Taylor fan, but I get your point (I think). While I'm for peace negotiations, I'm certainly no pacifist. On those occassions when a suicide bomber manages to only blow himself up I find myself humming the tune "I Want To Be Around To Pick Up The Pieces." The Tony Bennett version. So while I won't be supporting you and Moshe Feiglin and Rabbi Ovadia Yosef in leading the Hebrew children to your version of the promised land, I will continue supporting those in Israel who are working for a two-state solution.

    • Shy Guy

      Yes. Then you are for the further endangerment of our country and people.

      Buzz off.

      • Jim from Iowa

        I will be happy to see the people of Israel decide that for themselves through the democractic processes. The best approach will not be decided by you or me. And realistic, practical solutions won't come from some old texts held sacred by an ever-shrinking number of people who can only embrace some kind of rigid theocracy with its apocalyptic visions of widespread death and destruction.

        So buzz off yourself.

        • Shy Guy

          Yes, Prime Minister Chamberlain. That piece of paper you're holding up there says it all.

          I wasn't even referring about anything theocratic and certainly not apocalyptic in my post to you. Poke elsewhere.

          • Michael Zvi krumbein

            Once again:

            By the way, he was pushed into saying "Peace with Honor", which is a quote from Disraeli.

            • Jim from Iowa

              Man A says: Surely Zucker wasn't serious about that comparison between Neville Chamberlin and James A. Baker III.

              Man B responds: Of course Zucker was serious. And don't call me Shirley.

              • Michael Zvi krumbein

                No, Chaimberlain was a decent chap at heart. What I have to say about Baker – well the last time I used that sort of language was ninth grade.

        • Michael Zvi krumbein

          Regarding the first half, I agree. Tell Obama to buzz off.

          Regarding the second half, that sounds a lot more like Marx than the Torah.

          • juvanya

            Youll be happy to know that I dont see myself voting for him in 2012.

            • Jim from Iowa

              And you're voting for Mr. or Ms. fill-in-the-blank Republican. Does it even matter to you who the GOP nominates? And what state do you live in anyway? In most states the races are so noncompetitive that it won't matter who you vote for. (Not that I'm trying to oppress you or deny you your right to vote for any rightwing nincompoop you choose.) But at least in Iowa where the presidential races have been extremely close the last 3 or 4 election cycles, whether you vote and how you vote matters a great deal and can really affect the outcome of the election. But I bet you knew all that stuff already. You're pretty smart. Even for someone planning to vote Republican.

              • Michael Zvi krumbein

                Miss. Republicans are Miss and Mrs., or sometimes both. (I still remember in the New York times, Miss Gloria Steinem.)

              • juvanya

                You assume too much.

                The only Republican I could see voting for is Jon Huntsman and hes out of service until 2016 at the earliest.

            • Michael Zvi krumbein

              Marx? Just kidding.

    • juvanya

      The 22 state solution is better.

      • Michael Zvi krumbein


        • juvanya

          Arabs that abide by 242 can stay. The rest can go.

          • Michael Zvi krumbein

            I hate to say this, but where?
            The truth that either-or people miss is that it is not necessarily a matter of expulsion. If you gave them an alternative, a lot of people would leave on their own. (This also applies to the U.S. immigration debate and disincentives.) Thus the ridiculous charge the Meir Kahane wanted to kill all of the Arabs. ("But what if they don't go." I don't know, what if they don't want to pay Obama's insurance tax, or fill out his new 1099's, or any other law.)

            • juvanya

              Any of the other states. There is plenty of room and money for it.

              If they dont go, we take lessens from Hitnatkut, where there were no casualties as far as I know.

              • Michael Zvi krumbein

                I think you miss the point here. They're all in it together; none of them will do it. They wouldn't even let Israel resettle them IN PLACE.

                It's not a demand issue, it's a supply issue. None of the countries dare. Besides, look what happened to Jordan.

                If they sould, we could get somewhere. We could have "peace" for a while. (Actually, we have peace. I never realized it, but that "satirist" saying "that's why nothing bad happens" was more correct than he intended. Maybe it really is all of the new Yeshiva students.)

                Oh, great new Latma, once again.

    • Michael Zvi krumbein

      You know I actually remember thinking that, in Hebrew school when the prinicpal came in and talked about the "children of Israel". I was rather confused, wondering why we children were separated from everyone else, like the adults of Israel.

  • Don Cox

    “As for exaggeration, Ovadia Yosef’s comments – as offensive as they may be to many – were not tantamount to calls for genocide. ”

    I disagree. I think inflammatory speeches like this from people in positions of respect are exactly what leads to genocide.

    The fact that the Arabs say more and worse is no excuse. He should be prosecuted for stirring up racism.

    • Shy Guy

      The fact that the Arabs say more and worse is no excuse. He should be prosecuted for stirring up racism

      So if I described the Germans of the Nazi era as evil, bitter enemies of Israel, should I also be prosecuted for your trumped-up race card accusations?

      "Thought police – arrest that man!!!"

      • Michael Zvi krumbein

        Under Israeli law, possibly. It all depends on whose side the MSM is on.

    • israellycool

      Yosef did not ask his followers to carry out these wishes. He asked G-d.

      The palestinians, on the other hand, tell their people to murder Israelis and Jews. I see a big difference.

      • Jim from Iowa

        But isn't that the point, Dave, that the Rabbi asked God to effect a political solution? Rabbi Yosef is talking to people who believe they are doing God's work here on Earth. They are religious people who are very much influenced by leaders such as the rabbi. Asking God to destroy Abbas & company is very much like asking his followers to give Him a helping hand in getting the job done. I see no real difference.

        • Michael Zvi krumbein

          Then you don't understand religious people, and you certainly don't understand Chareidim.

          • Michael Zvi krumbein

            Well, Jews anyway.

            • AEWHistory

              I've got to agree here. I don't recall the details here, but it was comments of this nature that lead to Rabin's assasination if memory serves, so I think it is fair to say this is incitement. I'm not familiar enough with Israeli law to know if this is prosecutable, but I do believe this is at best ill advised and at worst could lead to catastrophic results. But that's just my 1/50 of a dollar. I guess I'm just a firm believer that no matter how bad things get, even if we need respond with violence, we can still maintain the moral high ground, or at least try to (and by and large, we do).

              • Michael Zvi krumbein

                You're (unintentionally) just repeating the standard line of the Left, which they use for political reasons to incite hatred against the Right and the settlers. If anyone caused that tense situation, it was Rabin himself for pooh-poohing hundreds of dead Jews. And by the way, the guy who did it belonged to a group of exactly five people, the head of which worked (at least at one point) for Israeli counter-intelligence. If any part of the last sentence is not unquestioned fact, please point me to a correction; I will appreciate it.

                Again, what's wrong with asking God to destroy people who have declared themselves your enemies? He didn't say Arabs, he didn't way Moslems, he said "Palestinians", who have declared themselves our enemies. What is so hard to understand?

      • juvanya

        And What the Neturei Karta never tell hippies is that they ask God to slay all the Arabs.

        • Michael Zvi krumbein

          The Neturei Karta ask that God slay all of the Arabs? When they believe they belong there at this point? Huh?

          By the way, since a cab driver asked me about the Satmar demonstrating against Israel, I checked and was told that they are basically schismatic, kind of like those Mormons who still practice polygamy.

          • Michael Zvi krumbein

            But you do have a point in that – as people fail to understand – we all basically believe the same thing. Even the late Moshe Hirsch believed that the entire land of Israel, including Israel, Lebanon, Northern Jordan, and parts of Syria and Iraq, is the sole and eternal possesion of the Jewish people. He just didn't believe that we had a right to it at this point.

          • juvanya

            Yes, they oppose the human refounding of Israel and support it being done by the Messiah and/or God, which will involve cleansing the land of non-Jews.

            • Michael Zvi krumbein

              It will? Where do you get THAT from?

              • Jim from Iowa

                I think I recognize it as a line from "Ghostbusters" where the Rick Moranis character is possessed by some Hittite god and as the "Keymaster" babbles on about Gozar and Zul and that all will perish in flames.

                • juvanya

                  Sumerian. He asks a horse if it is the gatekeeper and the driver is like "talk to me if you want to ride" and "Louis Tully" stares at him and says "you will perish in flames!"

              • juvanya

                Thats my interpretation, that the land will be cleared for the Jews and that it will involve a lot of Muslim deaths.

                • Michael Zvi krumbein

                  Interpretation of the beliefs of whom? The Neturei Karta? You have quotes from them?

                  A friend of mine, quite to the right of myself, writes messianic techno-thrillers. His version of the messiah (a Yemenite scholar with a great liking for the Satmer Rov) comes to Israel accompanied by a Mormon and the Sharif of Mecca (or the like) in an old Ford.

                  • juvanya

                    There are no quotes because they hide that, but its clear that they say only God (or the Mashiakh) can create Israel…which implies that the land will be cleared for the Jews.

                    messianic techno-thrillers? o_O
                    Im actually thinking of writing some Tom Clancy-style books related to that and Israel geopolitically.

                    • Michael Zvi krumbein

                      Um, no it doesn't. Only the Mashiach can (don't accuse them of heresy), and there is plenty just in scripture alone to indicate the presence of Gentiles. No reason to "clear" the land; there will be plenty of room for all of us. "The pious of the nations of the world have a share in the World to Come" – what do you think that means – although that is post-messianic.

                      At any rate, don't project your beliefs on others. There are no official positions on the details. "And these things, we will not know how they will be until they are" – Maimonides.

                    • juvanya

                      I wouldnt quite say those are my beliefs, just my interpretation of other beliefs.

                    • Michael Zvi krumbein

                      Your belief of what other people believe. The probability of your being correct is not high.

    • Michael Zvi krumbein

      Claiming God should wipe out our enemy is a call for genocide? So what percentage of the American population during WWII were war criminals?

    • nanaloshen

      I understand how you are bothered by what he says, but if you read him, he's calling on G-d to kill them, not you or me. If you're bothered by it, I suggest you pass on reading the Torah. It will absolutely ruin your day.

  • Michael Zvi krumbein

    This reminds me that I just found out that we have a law in this country called "incitement to discrimination" (or was it racism)? I think that such a law is extremely scary and ought to be opposed by anyone who has the slightest belief in civil rights or popular rule.

    Basically, the concept is so broad that it means that it means that it restricts free speech to those that agree with the positions of the MSM. It's basically a heresy law.

    I am coming to the conclusion that the United States is only free country in the world.

    • Michael Zvi krumbein

      By the way, the MSM every day incites against settlers and Chareidim. I guess that doesn't count because we aren't a race? (And Arabs are? Moslems? "Palestinians"?)

      I am definitely not in Kansas anymore. But I came here with my eyes open, and I'm not going anywhere. (I can't; my passport expired :-)) And the common man is pretty safe speaking, or I wouldn't write half of what I do. The problem is more the "chilling effect", or rather the potential for misuse.

      • Jim from Iowa

        Your story is truly so compelling, Michael, that there's a Broadway musical in there somewhere, I'm sure of it. Maybe "Thoroughly Not-So-Modern Michael" or "Oh Jerusalem." I see Mandy Patinkin playing the lead.

        • Jim from Iowa

          To clarify, my thinking on the title "Oh Jerusalem" is that unlike "Oh Calcutta" where all cast members removed all of their clothing on stage, the hook for "Oh Jerusalem" would have cast members adding layers of modest, conservative attire to the point they would appear very much like the Michelin Man. With black hats.

          • Michael Zvi krumbein

            You're having me played by a lady? What am I, Peter Pan?

            Besides, the Michelin Guide is the arbiter of taste, and I don't have any.

            • Jim from Iowa

              Mandy Patinkin is a guy, Michael. Didn't you ever see "Evita" on Broadway or "Yentl" on the silver screen?

              And I would never mistake you for Peter Pan. I'm guessing you wouldn't look very good in green tights.

          • Michael Zvi krumbein

            So I'm to be played by a lady, like Peter Pan? That's nasty. But it does remind me that I need to reply to the person asking about the lack of mention of "transgendered people" in thw Wikipedia "LGBT products and Judaism" article.


    • juvanya
      • Michael Zvi krumbein

        Please note that this is the very left-wing Ninth circuit. Hopefully this will stand about as long as the gay marriage decision. If not, congress can override.

        At any rate, I am talking about what's illegal, not how the government can find things out.

        • juvanya

          Thats what makes no sense really. But I agree with you on both points. Itll be interesting to see in the Supreme Court.

          • Michael Zvi krumbein

            It would seem so, but the Left does tend to be pro-govrnment control lately, at least over property.

            Then again, maybe that's really just how he understood the law. They do occasionally make non-ideological decisions. Our Supreme Court makes America's seem positively sane. You did see that one issue in Kagan's confirmation was her admiration for Barak, the guy who ruined our court system?

            • juvanya

              And the left of the SC wrote to enforce eminent domain a few years ago.

              I never really supported her or had much of an opinion other than her looking like a man.

              • juvanya

                And she does worry me a bit.

                • Michael Zvi krumbein

                  What worries me is her admiration for former Justice Barak, he of the mono-ideological, self-perpetuating, Supreme Court (since cleaned up a little).

      • Michael Zvi krumbein

        A law like "incitement to racism" would last as long in the U.S. court system as a snowflake.

        • juvanya

          But beyond speech, this country is very much unfree.

          • Michael Zvi krumbein

            I have to say, I rather disagree. Besides, speech is the right that undergirds the others, because it allows you to change the government. Look how things were before the Patriot Act. Hamas (before Oslo) was basically run out of the U.S. and there was nothing the government could do about it. (Kind of like that case with the kid in Maryland who ran to Israel, but in reverse.) Or the various suspicions about Sept. 11 that the law did not allow investigating, that likely would have prevented it.

            Put it another way – compare the amount of freedom after the Patriot act with the amount during WWII. War does limit freedom. And it is largely because the government hasn't abused it much, unlike, say, Clinton's use of the IRS, the FBI, etc., to destroy his opponents.

            Of course, if the Fariness Doctrine comes back, then we will, in fact, cease to be a republic, de facto.

            (You should see what Shabak can do here, particularly in the territories. Of couse, we need those rules to stop terrorism. Habeus Corpus, anyone?)

            • juvanya

              Fairness Doctrine is unnecessary.

              • Michael Zvi krumbein

                To squelch the right? That's the purpose, you know. John Kennedey said as much.

                • juvanya

                  Well I think we already have fairness. Conservative radio and liberal TV. There are minority opposite views on each:NPR/FOX respectively.

                  • Michael Zvi krumbein

                    Exactly. Except that the Right predominates in opinion programming, while the Left predominates in what passes for news. The Fairness Doctrine would "balance"
                    the opinion, leaving the left predominent overall. Of course, the commercial results might leave us with nothing but "news".

                    Or didn't you notice who wants the doctrine back and who doesn't? Or that reforms NEVER touch the newspapers?

                    • juvanya

                      Yeah I know who. I dont support it. And this guy on the local radio who is either left or centre made a good argument about how it will screw everyone. He would have to take the phone calls from fringe lunatics "for fairness".

                      I feel like newspapers are still balanced or try to be so. Even the NYT. They might have the overall essence of a liberal paper, but theyll always bring in a conservative view. Same with the school paper here. Its reputed as a liberal rag, but still will accept any number of opposition letters (I personally wish they published more letters, which is what I like about the NY Daily News).

                    • Michael Zvi krumbein

                      Here's a simple test. Whom do they label? Who gets called "controversial"? Who gets called "extreme"? How often are people labeled as "conservative" versus "liberal"? And of course, how long do each sides scandals get play? (Of course, you actually need to know the scandal exists.)

                      P.S. The NYT got called on this so many times, they actually are labeling less. As a practical matter, the entire MSM defines news as what the NYT covers.

            • Jim from Iowa

              Olson Johnson is right about Howard Johnson being right. I mean, juvanya is right about the country being unfree. And with the Supreme Court's outrageous "Citizens United" case overturning campaign finance reform laws, our free speech rights have seriously been impaired. If money is speech and if corporations have the same constitutional rights as individuals (as the five Republican-appointed justices found) then we truly have lost a lot of freedom to select a government of the people.


              Gabby Johnson is right.

              • Michael Zvi krumbein

                Huh? Black is while and white is black and restriction of speech is freedom? If you don't like the constitution, amend it. But until you do, please stop trying to take rights away from the rest of us. (I could actually see your point about corporations, if the law didn't also apply to unincorporated entites.)

                • Jim from Iowa

                  I thought we had made a real breakthrough and now you just sound like Glenn Beck all over again. Judicial activism comes from the left and the right my friend. That's why elections are so important. And if you can't see how SCOTUS finding that money is speech and how lots of corporate money (or labor union money for that matter) has undue power to influence the electorate then I really can't fix that for you.

                  • Michael Zvi krumbein

                    I see your point in that corporations have a government charter. Of course, under original Maryland law, Jews could not form corporations, which meant they couldn't even organize synagogues.

                    At any rate, I don't see corporations as making much of a difference, especially now that Obama has co-opted them. On the other hand, unions still seem to make a big difference, even WITH the law, so it seems to me that the law is unequal. How about banning all coerced political contributions, starting with political use of union dues? And putting back the original Hatch act? And completely separating government unions from civilian ones? (Just thought of that – thanks!)

                    I didn't hear anything about this on Glenn Beck, but I've lately been watching clips of him. I had never heard of him until you started attacking him. Thank you for introducing me to him – the man is fantastic!

  • Michael Zvi krumbein

    Oops, Jim, was afraid of that. I'm very sorry. (And especially with the "toodles".)

    I don't think I would have got the O Culcutta reference, since there WAS a best-seller named "O Jerusalem".

    I didn't see your whole post (only in the margin), but I did not see Evita on Broadway. I did, however, read the book.

  • fototapety

    Heya i?m for the first time here. I found this board and I find It really useful & it helped me out much. I hope to give something back and aid others like you helped me.

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