The Trouble With Dr Paul
It’s coming up again and again: Ron Paul. Look I get it, you’re a libertarian and I agree it seems there is nowhere else to turn. The Democrats have marched off to the far left and are knocking on the doors of an authoritarian, totalitarian future of lock down and abandoned rights.
Most of the “official” Republicans don’t show much sign of understanding real personal freedoms in a framework of personal responsibilities either.
So like our frequent commenter here, juvanya, you’re drawn to the one man who, especially on domestic economics and personal freedoms in the US, says all the right things. I do get that.
And I also listen to the No Agenda Podcast and they love Ron Paul for most of the same reasons.
But on foreign policy he either doesn’t have a clue how it should be done or he’s evil. I veer toward the former. Barry Rubin picked apart a particular plank of Ron Paul platform on foreign issues: they hate us because we bombed them. It turns out if you actually look at Iranian history concerning the rise of the Shah instead of believing media soundbites, you learn something. When it comes to the 7th century form of Islam that rules Iran and as espoused by the Muslim Brotherhood elsewhere: they hate us. Why? Because we exist and continue not to bow down and submit.
But that’s just one aspect. The following started off as an email to Adam Curry and John C. Dvorak relating to things they said on No Agenda yesterday, but if it’s good enough for them, it’s good enough for Israellycool readers!
1. The Israelis I know (real people) don’t want American GI’s fighting for us: we didn’t want Gulf War 1 or 2 and when the Scuds were falling the country had to forcibly restrained from fighting back. Iraq wasn’t Iran and even when the US et al went to Iraq the 2nd time, Israel was quietly screaming that Iran was the problem. All we ask is that if the shit really kicks off, you’ll help us with guns and bullets so we can hold our own: we don’t need guys, girls, gays or pilots: we have our own. In the past this hasn’t happened and in our hour of need we’ve been let down.
2. During the last war with Lebanon thousands of real Iranian and Syrian supplied rockets landed on real homes and real people in northern Israel. I know them. I know where they landed. I know my brother in law was wounded by an Iranian re-manufactured Chinese anti-tank missile. The ONLY reason we had so few civilian casualties was because we all (even me here in Tel Aviv 1 km from the sea) have mandated safe rooms in all new homes. In the north those saved countless lives. Some Israeli Arabs break the law and build without these expensive rooms: in the last war a disproportionate number of Israeli Arab civilians in the north died from Hezbollah’s rockets. Hezbollah called them Martyrs. Nice.
3. I know you guys follow the mantra “words matter” and they do, but your quibbling (and Dr P’s) about the exact words Ahmedinnnerjacket uses to wish me dead don’t matter in English translation. In the end it all comes down to the following because both Sunni and Shi Islam take the following line from the stories of the life of Muhammad as, well, “gospel” and very very seriously:
“The Hour [of Resurrection] will not come until you fight the Jews. The Jew will hide behind stones or trees. Then the stones or trees will call: ‘Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.”
Add in that, like saying Voldermort in the Harry Potter books, Ahmedin-Jihad (which is what his name really means), can’t say Israel (there is a perfectly good Farsi word for us) so he uses various constructs around Zionist regime or Zionist rulers. There has never been any sane person who claims that should any Muslim army conquer present Israel, the result for us 6 million Jews (we’ve hit that number here now) living here would be pretty.
Update: I threw in the line above separating out the Jihad sound from the end of Ahmadinejad’s name more as a rhetorical flourish than a serious exegesis. I’m grateful to juvanya in the comments for the following:
As for Ahmadinejad, you are absolutely wrong about what it means and I highly recommend you correct this. Ahmadinejad means “from the race of Ahmad”.
There’s so much more not to like in Islamic scripture but if I had to pick only one it would be that one. It’s no coincidence this is a favourite passage when rulers want to whip up a mob. There’s no escaping that Muhammad by his own hand murdered hundreds of Jews: and he is the perfect man to be emulated.
Iran’s regime (and not just front man and puppet Ahmadinejad) are firm believers in an Iranian apocalyptic end of days form of Islam. The really are nuts: MAD doesn’t work with these guys and that is why we’re worried. I’ve also read the IAEA reports (I even have some inside info) but that agency was so thoroughly broken especially under El Baradi that we can’t trust anything it says (even when it says they are working on bad stuff).
In the end, and I know why you guys are suspicious of your government, there is one obligation I believe the Israeli government does take seriously and that is summed up by Never Again. The media in the US and the West never showed the photos of the train tracks, they never showed the photos of the camps and nothing was done. We’re not going quietly again. And after they showed it and after the “liberation”, the British kept as many Jews out of Israel as they could even (you don’t know this) cutting the food rations of the 100,000 survivors in the Displaced Persons camps in Europe if they tried to get to Israel.
BTW I, like many others in Israel, would prefer not to get the loan guarantees we get from the US with which we must buy US weapons. I’d prefer we made more of our own and exported them back to you but the realities of modern weapon systems are such that we don’t have the scale the US has. We already do that with upgrades as most of your top weapon systems have been improved here (again I have personal first hand experience with this). The F15 is only still in service because of Israeli upgrades.
I ain’t going back to the UK and America has turned me down once already. This is my home and we’ll fight to keep it.
About the Author
Brian of London is not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy. Since making aliyah in 2009, Brian has blogged at Israellycool. Brian's interests include world peace and an end to world hunger.Besides blogging here, Brian of London now writes for PJ Media. Brian of London also hosted Shire Network NewsFiled Under: Brian of London • General
Oooh a shoutout. Ill respond tomorrow..gotta sleep!
Actually, Ill go for now since people need to see a balanced take.
Ron Paul absolutely has a clue how foreign policy is done and the ones advocating war and bombing are the evil ones. Come on Brian. The way the US has acted the past 60 years is worse than what the Iranians threaten to do in American and Israeli nightmares. People like you want the US to be all big, tough, and bash things around, but should anyone else do that, its suddenly paramount evil.
Barry Rubin is an ideologue (and some other things Ill save for his blog), who is completely ignorant of reality and history. But I will give hem credit for at least going back to 1953. And you have completely warped his thesis. Iran has geopolitical interests, which are counter to the US. He didnt quite say they were insane madmen. They simply want power over the region.
However, his and your theses are completely wrong. Irans rulers may be somewhat crazy, but the people are not. They have a long, stable, civilized history (one that freed us) that they dont want obliterated. They are tame and Western-thinking. They are not crazy (thats more of an Arab trait) and violent. During the protests in 2009, there were signs OPPOSED to palestinianism. They wanted things to be dealt with at home. The “mullahs” may or may not be crazy, but they have a domestic constituency that does. not. want. to. be. nuked. Iran I dont think is creating a nuclear weapon. I think they are pulling a double bluff, so they can strike fear into the region, but be proven innocent should they be attacked. And if they are, what reason do they have to use it? They nuke Israel and are nuked back. They nuke the US and are a glass plate. But maybe theyll give it to Hezbollah, you say? Why on Earth would they go to all that work to build a nuke and the power it provides and then give it to a puppet? Now the puppet will no longer be controllable. Iran, if they are pursuing nukes, wants them because theyve seen what happens when you dont (Iraq, Afghanistan) and what happens when you do (North Korea, USSR).
1. Rearmament is fine. Paul is not planning any embargo on Israel, that would be against his views. This may come as a surprise to an ideologue who is ignorant of how military sales works. A military buys from a company, such as Boeing, Raytheon, or Remington, not another country. Under President Paul, Israel will be able to buy or borrow and buy the weapons it needs in a time of war.
2. This is a real issue, but has nothing to do with Paul.
3. This is a very good counter-argument. They do use “Zionist regime” or “Zionist entity” to mean Israel, and for some reason the IRNA article still says “wipe off the map”. As for Ahmadinejad, you are absolutely wrong about what it means and I highly recommend you correct this. Ahmadinejad means “from the race of Ahmad”.
Quran I wont quite disagree with, altho you exaggerate it a bit. But the Iranian rulers are not quite nuts. American leaders also believe in the End of Days, Bush included. So you could make the same argument back. These people still have lives and the fact that they havent really done anything suicidal yet kind of indicates the ARENT sucidal. And once again, they are a minority who has a domestic constituency to answer to and even within the government, there is substantial opposition to sabre rattling. Vast majorities of Iranians want to engage with the West and the US, but Bush rebuffed them because it was more important to establish American domination and pursue that Axis of Evil crap (how is that any different from “wipe off the map”?)
And removing the aid does not mean Israel is on its own. Like I said, Israel will still be able to purchase any restocks it needs. Stop straw manning us (Rubin has a whole field of em). Israel has a solid A+ positive credit rating and can fairly easily borrow money. The credit rating is actually something to watch. As Israel moves up, we will know how stable its position is. An AA or AA+ Israel is not facing any existential threats. If aid had been removed gradually over the past decade, Israel would have weaned itself off of it, or perhaps only be using a trickle now. $3 billion is still a small amount of the budget and not really necessary. Perhaps 20 MKs oppose the aid from the right wing. Thats significant.
So really there is nothing to worry about Paul. He is not leaving the Middle East on January 21st. It will take time and the region will adjust. Israel will adjust. The dictators supported by the US will adjust. The Arab Spring is the greatest thing that could have happened for Israel. It looks bad now, but democracy and free expression are a good thing. The Islamic parties HAVE to deliver. In time, the region will chance and there will be peace.
Btw, I talk to an Egyptian regularly. He used to oppose the Brotherhood, now hes more sympathetic. But he doesnt plan to vote for them. I can assure he is not crazy Islamist, but he does have Islamic pride. He is probably representative of Egyptian people. They dont want an Islamist regime. They want freedom. They want a little Islam to clean things up. They want football!
My problem stems from the knowledge of what being raised within Islam does to most people. Sure there are exceptions, but the vast majority (if the central imposition of Islam is carefully controlled) end up as willing slaves ready to die for their rulers.
I also know that the Iranian Persian people are very different from the Arabs, but the only signs they’ve shown of throwing off the shackles of their rulers were squashed by Obama and the west. That is one of the greatest crimes of Obama to date (and there are plenty of others).
Until good people run Iran, we have to treat the whole place as if they mean what they say. I don’t care if they are bluffing about nukes: nations should know that this is not a bluff you can pull. If there is suspicion it is to them to clear it or for us to take no chances. Maybe you can’t understand what it is to live next to it. In the end, however, whether I die by nuke or by Hezbollah rocket, it’s the same and both threats should be robustly challenged. Both these enemies respect strength and feed off weakness.
Pre-emptive war is right if the motives are good: making sure that today’s military industrial (academic) complex has good motives is the hard part.
On this I trust Israel’s govt more than I trust the bought and paid for President or politicians of the US. But not uncritically.
“Ron Paul absolutely has a clue how foreign policy is done…”
You trust him too much. You trust him to be as good as his word. You trust him not to appease the Muslims on Israel’s expense. I don’t share your trust.
“The way the US has acted the past 60 years is worse than what the Iranians threaten to do…”
You gotta be kidding. This is Howard Zinn stuff, Juvanya.
“Barry Rubin is an ideologue…”
And you aren’t? No other comparison intended, but this is like Dicksilver, who accuses every opponent of being an “ideologue,” while he isn’t, of course (but I think we all know how capable he is of putting off the glasses of his ideology in everything).
Everyone’s an ideologue to some degree or other. “My country, right or wrong” and “9/11 was blowback for American foreign policy” are both instances of ideology.
“He didnt quite say they were insane madmen. They simply want power over the region.”
How about both? The Nazis were easily both.
“…but the people are not.”
Oh, not this “the rulers want peace, the people want war” thesis again! I’d have thought the aftermath of Mubarak’s ouster in Egypt would have put an end to that fallacy.
“They are not crazy (thats more of an Arab trait) and violent.”
Not an ideologue. Not a genetic deterministic worldview behind that “Arab trait” bit, not at all. /sarc
“Iran I dont think is creating a nuclear weapon.”
Israel I don’t think is going to bet the life of its citizens on that.
“They nuke Israel and are nuked back. They nuke the US and are a glass plate.”
They’re Muslim believers, for heaven’s sake! Muslims! The shahid (suicide-murderer) mentality, doesn’t that ring a bell? You’re foisting your own, rational mentality on where it’s totally out of place!
“Why on Earth would they go to all that work to build a nuke and the power it provides and then give it to a puppet? Now the puppet will no longer be controllable.”
I don’t know. Why would the Arab colonists in the Gaza region destroy the greenhouses and turn them into sand lots with tunnels for smuggling rockets after the expulsion of all the Jews? Surely they wouldn’t do that, being rational people? Oh wait, they did. In August 2005, they did just that.
“Iran, if they are pursuing nukes, wants them because theyve seen what happens when you dont (Iraq, Afghanistan) and what happens when you do (North Korea, USSR).”
It’s not a good sign when a person walks in the other side’s shoes instead of his own. To put it very gently, it bespeaks a patriotism deficiency.
“Paul is not planning any embargo on Israel, that would be against his views.”
His views would be promptly thrown under the bus for the sake appeasing the Islamic world on the Jewish State’s expense.
“The Arab Spring is the greatest thing that could have happened for Israel.”
You’re out of your ever-loving mind.
“The Islamic parties HAVE to deliver.”
And they’ll deliver all right, they’ll deliver: Jihad, the promise to the man in the street of enriching himself with the spoils of the vanquished Jews, they’ll deliver that.
Islam is imperialism. Nazism was, Islam’s the same. And it’s believed. Like in medieval Europe, and not as in Europe now, the majority take it seriously. All foreign policy failures (including Bush Jr.’s Afghanistan and Iraq misadventures) can be traced to the lack of acknowledgment of this fact.
“He is probably representative of Egyptian people. They dont want an Islamist regime. They want freedom. They want a little Islam to clean things up. They want football!”
They want the trains to run on time, I got that. But that also means they don’t mind if killing the Jews is a step in the way of making that happen.
Too much of the bifurcation fallacy between wanting to lead happy lives and wishing to obliterate the enemy and take their possessions. As we saw with Nazi Germany, they’re not mutually exclusive: People can easily come to think obliterating the enemy and taking their possessions is the way to leading happy lives.
ron paul is an insane, jew hating, racist bastard
nuff said
The modest success Ron Paul’s candidacy has experienced so far is a reflection of the collective nervous breakdown the Republican Party is going through right now. How else can you explain support of up to 20% for a man whose ideas have been so thoroughly discredited? And that was in the 19th Century. Going on the gold standard would be like building sea walls to avoid falling off the edge of the Earth. It would be a disaster for the world economy. Ron Paul doesn’t believe in the government’s role in defending a woman’s right to reproductive choice or a black person’s right to equal access to accomodations or voting rights. Dr. Paul is so wedded to his idealogical view that he fails to see the way the world really is.
Jim,
Just wait until nations stop using our dollar as the currency they exchange goods in, then I think we will see a real economic disaster, we don’t have the trillions that we are in debt now much less be able to sustain more trillions in debt and that is without even considering what will happen if interest rates were allowed to creep up. Hyperinflation may be just a few years away and that seawall might start looking good.
So, you’re one of those people who is buying up those little gold bars that are advertised on Glenn Beck’s program for your economic security? Good luck with that the next time you try to order a pizza or anything else.
IMO the gold-hoarders and the credit-economy Keynesians are both wrong. In a real cataclysmic bust of the economy, it’ll be back to good ol’ bartering. Like in the Great Depression, when an electrician who wired your house expected to be paid directly in food.
I love those survivalist companies who sell their freeze-dried foods at inflated prices to those who believe the apocolypse is just around the corner. I’ve only heard these commercials on far-right radio programs such as Andrew Wilcow and Michael Savage.
Alright, you think both gold-hoarders and food-hoarders are nuts, I get that. But somehow the belief that trillions in debt are going to be without much painful consequence is sane and rational, I get that too.
Juvanya – I might buy your thesis on Paul and FP if it wasn’t also pretty darned clear he has no clue how an economy works – no Fed and the gold standard? Really?? It was inadequate when we were a much smaller and simpler economy. My problem with this post is its characterization of the Dems. I don’t see them being very totalitarian (the actual restrictions on civil rights I’ve seen were put in by the Shrubs), though that is the Fox news rhetoric. I do see a sizeable chunk of the Left being virulently anti-Israel, and equally anti-semitic whether they admit it or not. And despite the right’s opinion of Obama, I’d say he’s not part of that group and that group is far from controlling the party. That said, given Obama’s lukewarm actions towards Israel and disrespect for Netanyahu, I’m not voting for him. I don’t think he’s and actual antisemite, and I tend to agree with him on the WB settlements (in the long run or even not so long run, most of them are bad for Israel). I just don’t trust him. If he’s been this lukewarm when he needs the Jewish vote for reelection, what’s he going to do when he doesn’t have to worry about it.
“And despite the right’s opinion of Obama, I’d say he’s not part of that group…”
Or so it seems from the teleprompter. Glimpses of his true, uncovered thoughts have been rare, but they’re not encouraging.
“…and I tend to agree with him on the WB settlements (in the long run or even not so long run, most of them are bad for Israel).”
I concur, the Arab settlements in the entire Land of Israel will have to be dismantled if there is to be any prospect of a just and viable peace in the region.
Obviously I was referring to the Jewish settlements there, though I certainly appreciate your turnabout. Would that your solution had a chance, Ziontruth. I don’t take the Divine right argument, whether from our side or theirs. And frankly, what you’re suggesting is just plain ethnic cleansing. You can claim Israel has a divine right to do just that to reverse the illegitimate Muslim conquest, but I don’t see a lot of people buying that. Even a majority of Jews would have trouble swallowing it. So the only other way is if the rest of the world is finally made to understand that the Arabs have no intention of ever living in peace with Israel, and this is the only solution. I can agree with that logic, but I don’t think the rest of the world will be persuaded so easily.
In any case, there are essentially 5 possible outcomes here: 1. ethnic cleansing per Ziontruth (Palis expelled or killed or diappearing by God’s hand); 2. apartheid (Israel annexes Judea and Samaria, but keeps Palis non-citizens); 3. two state (partition); 4. one state (bi-national, non-Zionist); 5. ethnic cleansing per Hamas (Jews expelled or killed or disappearing by God’s hand).
1 would be nice, but unless God does intervene, I don’t see the rest of the world acquiescing to that or 2. 3 is the next best choice.
As for my statement that the Settlements by and large aren’t good for Israel, sorry ZT, but I’m not remotely convinced they’re a good thing.
“Obviously I was referring to the Jewish settlements there…”
No such thing. Impossible by definition. The Jews are the indigenous people of Palestine. It is the Arabs who are the settler-colonists here, for they are indigenous to Arabia.
“I don’t take the Divine right argument,…”
I didn’t make that argument. You’ll note above that my argument is totally secular.
“…but I don’t think the rest of the world will be persuaded so easily.”
I don’t believe Israel’s survival is in any way contingent on courting the world’s positive opinion.
Option 2 (apartheid) won’t work, because it’s unsustainable. Being against human national pride, it’s bound to run up against a revolt sooner or later.
Option 3 (partition) won’t work because the Arabs don’t want just a bit of what the Jews have, they want to steal everything the Jews have.
Option 4 is what I agree with Steven Plaut in calling the Rwanda Solution. Enough said.
Option 5 is genocide—the Islamic imperialists don’t want to just drive out the Jews, they want to murder them. In contrast, even the most hardcore Jewish nationalist doesn’t call for genocide, only for mass expulsion (contrary to your suggestion of equivalence between options 1 and 5).
“…but I’m not remotely convinced they’re a good thing.”
They’re the right thing. If they’re not right, then neither was the whole Zionist resettlement of the Land of Israel prior to 1967; and if that was right, then so is the return to the post-1967 territories. The Islamic enemy makes no distinction between pre- and post-1967 Israel.
And if you say, “Better to be smart than right,” then you should know this is the Middle East, where, if you’re not right, then you’re not smart either; where relinquishing your rightful claim can only bring more war and bloodshed, for it signals weakness, an enemy ripe for defeat.
I done given the other side all the trust they could want during the 1993–2005 period; like many Israeli Jews, I now say they have squandered that. With their destruction of the Gaza greenhouses and the use of the former fertile grounds to smuggle Kassam rockets to be fired at pre-1967 Israeli Jewish population centers, the Arabs have provided us with conclusive proof that their intentions are total and genocidal. They want us dead and they want to steal everything we possess. That is the harsh truth.
Where have you been all my life? I no longer feel like the cheese who stands alone on this site.
Gary Johnson is the answer. All the positives of RP without the baggage and a sincere love for Israel. I have met with him and many of his campaign staff members and believe him to be the answer to America and to Israel. You can learn more about him and even ask him a question in his online town hall tonight.
Town Hall info: https://www.facebook.com/events/297117567002086/
GaryJohnson2012.com
@ziontruth – ” It is the Arabs who are the settler-colonists here, for they are indigenous to Arabia.”
I don’t dispute this, but the colonzation, such as it was, happened 1,400 years ago. Given that, I’m not sure how I feel about the expulsion option. Forcing 2.5 million people from their homes isn’t exactly a wonderful thing to do, and it’s against international law under almost all circumstances. And although you seem to think it could happen with a minimum of casualties, it’s possible it couldn’t happen without committing genocide. They’re not about to leave execpt under the threat of massive violence and maybe wouldn’t even do it then.
“Option 3 (partition) won’t work because the Arabs don’t want just a bit of what the Jews have, they want to steal everything the Jews have.” – You’re probably right, but it’s pretty much the only other Zionist answer. I keep hoping that a Palestinian State could be circumscribed or hemmed in enough that it wouldn’t be a threat, at least until it proved its peaceful intentions.
“Option 5 is genocide” – No real argument here, though one hears the occasional statement (probably for Western ears only) that implies expulsion is OK.
“I don’t believe Israel’s survival is in any way contingent on courting the world’s positive opinion.” – It is at least contingent on some level of support from without. If Israel’s actions make it enough of a rogue state in enough people’s eyes, then it could find itself in the same position as South Africa before 1994, or worse. Israel is strong and self-reliant, but I doubt it could withstand strong enough sanctions any better, which implies an Option 4 ending. I myself would call that the “Lebanon solution,” with Israeli Jews in the role of Maronite Christians. And that’s just ugly.
Just a short note: the sources from the early 1800′s (Mark Twain, US Consular Reports and other anecdotal references) point out how empty Israel was at this time (stretching right out to present day Jordan). There were almost no new Arab towns established for hundreds of years prior to the return of Jews. There were small Jewish populations all over who had continuous records as far back as anyone can tell.
The vast majority of Arab colonisation happened once Jews started working the place back toward civilisation. That is one of the prime reasons the UN definition of a refugee had to be completely changed for the Arabs of Israel to only look back a couple of years in order to grant them status rather than a generation as is more normal.
Lloyd S.,
“…but the colonzation, such as it was, happened 1,400 years ago.”
At least you accept it was a colonization. My beef isn’t about the date it happened, it’s about naming the colonist rightly. What I mean is, any attempt to portray Zionism as colonialism is unacceptable and needs to be stamped out by any lawful means available.
“Forcing 2.5 million people from their homes isn’t exactly a wonderful thing to do,…”
I agree on that. However, it may be the only alternative to murdering about 6 million people (the Jews of Israel).
“…and it’s against international law under almost all circumstances.”
Whoever goes by international law is welcome to wave the white flag before the Islamic imperialists right now. International law has absolutely no provision for dealing with an enemy whose explicit method of combat is to hide the combatants purposely behind the civilians in order to reap propaganda benefits should the other side fire.
“You’re probably right, but it’s pretty much the only other Zionist answer.”
Are you serious? This is like the “I have no alternative but stay with him” refrain heard from a battered wife.
“If Israel’s actions make it enough of a rogue state in enough people’s eyes,…”
Rogue states are the only ones that are going to survive in the coming decades. All others are steadily driving onto the cliff of suicide by internationalism. States everywhere have been browbeaten into the conformity of accepting a host of Muslim invader-immigrants on their soil, on pain of being condemned for “RAAAAACISM!” if they refuse. Sooner or later, Israel will be ostracized, even if it gives up Judea and Samaria, because then the anti-Zionist campaign would move to focussing on the rights of the Arab colonists within pre-1967 Israel, with the same result of universal condemnation and boycotts if Israel doesn’t go with the multiculturalist plot.
We can’t win under the Marxist-devised paradigm of post-colonial “equity” and multiculturalism. I can’t stress this enough: We can’t win this way, because that paradigm is expressly rigged to break down all nation-states, not just the Jewish one. Winning means no longer playing by the enemy’s rules.
Brian of London,
Good point, and another source I usually add (for those who say Twain isn’t good enough): British explorer Lord Kitchener in the late 19th century reports, if in less flowery language, the same sorry sights of Palestine as Twain does.
Note how the blogger is glibly prepared to use non-Jewish American life for Jewish interests…Obama “squashed” the Iranian dissenters because he would not fight another double-for-nothing war (Iraq being the first, failed one) for same.
(Oh, yes, American Jews were markedly underrepresented proportionately in US troops serving in Iraq.)
And note how zionslies is prepared to say a majority population with an average 3% conversion rate in and out of Jewry (with gentiles) in Europe for a thousand and more years is more Semitic, has more rights to the land than an indigenous Semite population which never left the Mideast and with deeds to the land.
But yes, in theory, even if the American Empire had not invaded and meddled in the Muslim world for the past sixty years, pimping for Arab puppets, overthrowing governments, funding the Israeli oppressor,etc. the Muslims would still hate us. From afar, in detached manner. As Ron Paul says, not in practise.
I have a name beyond “blogger” you know….
Tapped a nerve with the headline? Didn’t manage to dispel the red mist long enough to read “The Israelis I know (real people) don’t want American GI’s fighting for us”?
Piss off back to Stormfront mate, you’ll be happier there.
Either that or READ what I wrote.
Yes, I’m sure you can quote all the Israelis who were helping Buchanan out Doug Feith and the dual loyalist lies used by its fifth column to push us into Iraq.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/article/2003/mar/24/00007/
Troll from Stormfront (or Common Dreams—Far Right and Far Left sound the same when talking about the Jews and their state),
“Note how the blogger is glibly prepared to use non-Jewish American life for Jewish interests…”
From the post: “The Israelis I know (real people) don’t want American GI’s fighting for us.” But why let actually reading the post get in the way of a neo-Nazi rant?
“…than an indigenous Semite population…”
A genetics-based view of geopolitics, par for the course from a Stormfronter. Nice, but it doesn’t work that way: Jewishness is not determined by race. A Jew is either someone born to a Jewish mother or voluntary having converted per the requirements of Jewish Law; because of the second criterion, a Jew could be of any race.
And a Jew is an indigenous Palestinian no matter where he or she was born. In contrast, the Arab settler-colonists in Palestine only really took an interest in Palestine when their dream of Greater Syria (El Sham, of which Palestine was just the southern part) was dashed by the British and the French in 1920.
“…and with deeds to the land.”
Yes, fake deeds and fake keys for a fake nation. We all know about that.
“…the American Empire…”
Traitor. Anti-American traitor.
“…had not invaded and meddled in the Muslim world for the past sixty years,…”
Pro-Islamic traitor. Stooge for the cause of Islamic imperialism. You should be charged with treason by the high court of the country where you reside.
“…the Muslims would still hate us. From afar, in detached manner. As Ron Paul says, not in practise.”
In a parallel universe.
In this universe: Ask the Nigerian Christians, the Buddhist Thais, the Hindus in India, the largely left-leaning Swedes, in short all those groups lacking any history of “meddling” or “colonialism” upon the Muslims, about the “hate from afar, in a detached manner, not in practise” they’re getting from the Islamic imperialists. I dare you to confront this truth.
Islam is imperialism; where it is at peace with non-Muslim, it is actually a truce, made not for unwillingness to engage in jihad but temporary inability. Anyone who makes excuses for the Muslims’ inherent imperialist aggression is a traitor and should at the very least be deported from his country of residence.
AMSPIRNATIONAL says:
February 7, 2012 at 11:59 pm
You’re a little behind the times, zionlies. One, Reform Judaism defines a Jew with patrilineal line only now, should he wish to identify as a Jew.
I realize the Israeli rabbis aren’t too thrilled with this.
Two,Palestinian Arabs identified as such thru the 19th century,at the latest.
I suggest you also read “A Republic Not an Empire” by Buchanan, you Nation-draining imperialist subverter.
I don’t give a damn how Norweigians, Thais or Nigerians define Islam, nor whether Islam has aggressed against others proximate to its regions.
The United States Empire is the aggressor,vis a vis its relations with Islam, violating its own Monroe Doctrine, and conducting battles for plutocrats and Zionists which have nothing to do with maintaining the national standard of living.
Reply
CONSPIRAGAINSTOWNNATION,
“One, Reform Judaism defines…”
Reform “Judaism” doesn’t define anything, as it’s nothing but a construct to make Jews more comfortable assimilating to non-Jewish society—been so ever since its beginning with Mendelssohn.
“I realize the Israeli rabbis aren’t too thrilled with this.”
Naturally they aren’t, having seen Reform’s track record with American Jewry.
“Palestinian Arabs identified as such thru the 19th century,at the latest.”
False, except if you mean “Palestinian Arab” in the same way as “Californian American,” i.e. a reference to geographic location (an Arab who resides in Palestine, analogous to an American citizen residing in California). Regarding them as a nation in its own right is a post-1949 fictitious narrative, and one that even in the 1970s wasn’t yet mainstream outside of the Arab world (I have a Penguins historical atlas-book dating from 1976 that has not a word to say about a non-Jewish “Palestinian nation,” instead referring to them as “Arabs” and nothing else).
“…you Nation-draining imperialist subverter.”
I don’t care what Americans do with their own men, money and materials. I suspect I far more fit the isolationist bill than you Buchananites, who despite having talked the isolationist talk have been guilty of interventionist appeasement of the aggressors on expense of the innocent ever since Eisenhower’s presidency.
“I don’t give a damn how Norweigians, Thais or Nigerians define Islam, nor whether Islam has aggressed against others proximate to its regions.”
I know you don’t give a damn. How could you give a damn about Islamic aggression, as it would pull the rug from under your Jew-hatred? If Islam is the aggressor, then your whole thought-edifice of appeasing the Muslims on the one and only Jewish State’s expense comes crashing down, and you can’t have that!
“The United States Empire is the aggressor,…”
Traitor.
“…vis a vis its relations with Islam,…”
Islam is by nature the aggressor. Anyone who defends or excuses Islamic imperialism is a traitor to whatever non-Muslim country he resides in.
“…and conducting battles for plutocrats…”
Marxist agent of sedition. At least in the anti-capitalist rhetoric you use.
“…and Zionists…”
Neo-Nazi scum.
“…which have nothing to do with maintaining the national standard of living.”
Your country’s problem is people like you. Its national standard of living cannot rise when the scapegoating mentality exhibited by Ronulans, Buchananites, Stormfronters and black supremacists like Obama’s pastor makes its way to policy. The problem is staring at you in the mirror.
I agree that Americans do not deserve to emerge from the Great Collapse if 83% of Americans approve of drone bombing innocents in Afpak, as a poll just released revealed, and a large majority approve of detaining w/o trial large numbers of innocents at Gitmo.
http://eaazi.blogspot.com/2009/05/khaleejtimes-israel-steals-palestinian.html
“The vast majority of Roman Imperial Jews (more properly Judeans) had no ancestral connection to the populations that lived in the Hasmonean or Herodian Kingdoms of Judea. Modern ethnic Ashkenazim (Jews of Eastern European Yiddish-speaking origins) have less connection and no obviously legitimate claim on Palestine whatsoever.”
Thank you, Mr. Martillo.
conspiragainstownnation,
“I agree that Americans do not deserve to emerge from the Great Collapse if 83% of Americans approve of drone bombing innocents in Afpak,…”
So you, like Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Obama’s pastor and mentor for 20 years, agree in thinking God should damn America. Thank you for proving my point: You’re a traitor.
“The vast majority of Roman Imperial Jews (more properly Judeans) had no ancestral connection… Modern ethnic Ashkenazim (Jews of Eastern European Yiddish-speaking origins) have less connection…”
Once again, though I’m not very hopeful as to its chances of penetrating your thick neo-Nazi skull:
Jewishness is not solely a biological affair. A sincere convert to Judaism, having completed all the requirements of the Halachah (Jewish Law) for conversion, is a Jew. Almost without difference from a biological Jew (born to a Jewish mother), and even those small differences (like the restriction of marriage into a family of a kohen) cease upon the next generation.
Hard to understand for a neo-Nazi like you who thinks biology, blood, genes and inheritance are the be-all and end-all of existence, but there it is. And neither you nor Reform “Judaism” nor anti-Zionist site you quoted gets to say otherwise. This was all set in stone long, long ago.
“…and no obviously legitimate claim on Palestine whatsoever.”
This is not for you to determine. You have no right to speak on the matter.
It’s my fervent hope, well beyond rational thought, that Drew Barrymore can become Jewish. Will you and Shy Guy permit this to happen? You would make me the happiest Goy in the Upper Midwest if this were allowed to take place.
“It’s my fervent hope, well beyond rational thought, that Drew Barrymore can become Jewish. Will you and Shy Guy permit this to happen?”
Huh? What exactly is the problem with Drew Barrymore becoming Jewish? Being sincere enough is all that’s needed (the rabbis on the conversion board have a standard routine of bombarding prospective converts with discouragement, because Judaism does not seek converts. Those who pass unscathed are admitted to conversion).
The only beef I might have is if he undergoes conversion by other than the route of [Orthodox] Jewish Law. As an Orthodox Jew, I don’t recognize non-Orthodox conversions as having any validity.
Well, that is a load off my mind. Shy Guy made some silly comment a few days ago that she could not become Jewish for some undisclosed reason. Now I have the answer I was looking for. Thanks, Zi-. Forget I even mentioned that stuff Shy Guy was spouting.
ziontruth,greetings.
reading your encounters,on this subject/page,i feel i must compliment you,not only on your obvious use of the keyboard,spelling,but your knowledge of punctuation marks it was a joy to follow,i wish my english spelling and punctuation wer’e better but you can’t teach an old jew to many new tricks,i’m glad that all those big words beautyfully spelt/put together,wer’e not directed at me,so it’s now that your schooling has come in handy for use against the jew haters well done.
“…i feel i must compliment you,not only on your obvious use of the keyboard,spelling,but your knowledge of punctuation marks…”
Thank you, Soloman. These are things I must get right, because one programming language keyword spelled incorrectly or one punctuation mark out of place is enough to cause the compiler to honk at me in protest with an error message and refuse to compile the entire batch of code I’ve written.
“But,” I hear people say, “humans are far more fault-tolerant to language errors than are computers!” (Or perhaps a shorter version: “Get a life!”)
“Yes,” I hear myself reply, “but work habits die hard, and besides, writing in human language is a busman’s holiday as far as I’m concerned.”
thx for proving that all paulbots are filthy nazis
Would amspirnational kindly explain his theory that members of a Semitic religion who are not of Semitic ancestry are somehow fakes to nuclear-armed Pakistan?
BTW, is the problem that we’re racists or that we aren’t racists? Can you make up your so-called mind?
@Amspirparanoia – Yuck! Did you even read the blog? The blogger was pretty clear that neither he nor other Israelis are interested in having others fight their battles. And just where are those religious composition of the US armed forces stats coming from? Somebody’s putrid rectum would be my guess. Oh well. The nice thing about having you do such a rant here is that there are any number of people around who won’t hesitate to call Jew-hating scum what they are. I’m looking forward to seeing what they have to say…
Sorry – meant to comment on this beauty too – “majority population with an average 3% conversion rate in and out of Jewry (with gentiles) in Europe for a thousand and more years” Actually, Amspirparanoia, I’d say that the conversion rate you cite is vastly overstated, and likely from that same putrid rectum. It is possible, I suppose, that the average conversion rate out of Judaism might have approached something like that over the last two millennia. There were a lot of forced mass conversions, for one thing. For most of the time since Christianity became the state religion of the Romans, the conversion rate into Judaism has probably been miniscule, since conversion to Judaism was most often prohibited and heavily punished. In any case, you’d know that genetic testing of Jews shows that most do indeed have an ancient Middle Eastern origin. You’d also know that certain diseases tend to show up with high frequency in Jewish populations because their ancestors didn’t do a lot of intermixing with other peoples. That 3% figure you cite is probably high even for the open and tolerant society that is the US, although it is at least plausible for the US.
The problem with Ron Paul is that his isolationism is annoyingly consistent. A standard liberal thinks “Yankees go home” is a legitimate slogan and “Mexicans go home” is bigotry. A standard conservative thinks the opposite. Ron Paul apparently thinks everybody can go home.
On the other hand, that means that people who are part Mid-Eastern and part European (e.g., us Ashkenazic Jews) will have to be dismembered. It’s apparently okay if my heart is in Israel as long as my pancreas is in Poland.
On the gripping hand, that means that Dr. Paul’s heart should be in Ireland and his pancreas in Germany.
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