Inside the Mind of a J Streeter

377

J-StreetJ Street, the movement funded by George Soros, is growing in the United States. Strongly aligned with the Democratic Party, J Street is known for its constant criticism of Israel, strong support for the Iran Deal, and lying about being “pro-Israel.” They are seen as a leftist alternative to AIPAC, for people who feel alienated from the mainstream Jewish “unquestioning support for Israel.” Sadly, in the last few years, J Street has become the mainstream Jewish voice – it has infiltrated many Hillels across America, and some Jewish Federations have even started adopting their principles. The typical J Streeter was raised in an academic or intellectual family, on a strong diet of New York Times, BBC, and other anti-Israel outlets who take both “narratives” at face value and believe they deserve equal consideration despite endless proof that one side is lying. It is part of the same leftist “love thy enemy” culture that brought you young American USSR supporters during the Cold War, but now it’s become the norm among young students who are politically engaged.

This is what will happen if we don’t instill a strong sense of Jewish identity in our children.

Consider the following in the context of my Hasbara Guide. Could you keep track of which of my tips and tricks we used and when?



L = Me, Lex.

AD = Age 26, an Israeli who is a very close friend of mine and worked in intelligence while serving in the IDF.

MR = J Streeter. An old friend of mine from Summer Camp (a camp in Upstate New York that was mostly Jews), MR is 24, a graduate of NYU, and represents the typical viewpoint of an assimilated American Jew (I should know, I live here).

L

I feel like AD is the best guy to answer your questions. He knows literally everything

About Israel because he’s there and on the ground

AD

Ask away smile emoticon

My brain is simply too fried from grad school

MR

I don’t really have any questions. Just opinions lol

Share them

Just that I believe both sides of the conflict have blood on their hands. Israel is not innocent

Hamas is a terrorist organization but not everyone in Gaza deserves to have their homes and businesses destroyed

AD

Now, this is a lengthy answer.

L

AD is agnostic. Just so you know. Completely secular. Doesn’t celebrate any holiday except Purim because partying

AD

I agree with the fact that Israel is not innocent. No country that has went to war did so without killing and harming innocent civilians and their property. Sometimes this is due to bad aiming, sometimes this is due to the enemy shooting from an area where there are civilians, there are many reasons.

But, you are right. Not every person in Gaza deserves to have their home destroyed by Israeli bombings. This is why we, Israel, keep delivering tons of supplies every week through supply convoys that goes to Hamas and we even give them free electricity (*FREE* – they are millions of USD in debt but we cannot let them live without it, despite all the trouble that we get from giving them electricity (e.g. rocket manufacturing plants)).

This is the reason the Hamas and Fatah keep fighting each other. If you don’t know, Hamas is Muslim Brotherhood (Islam, Iran, Syria), and Fatah is the Palestinians (Palestinian Liberation Organization and later Palestinian Authority’s actual army).

They are at odds even now – in their “unified government” Fatah keeps withholding Hamas’s payments.

Fatah cares for the Palestinians and would NEVER let a hospital be destroyed. But, the Gaza Hospital was used (by Hamas) to launch rockets at Israel. If it does this, there is no reason to call it a civilian location: we called them, warned them, and later bombed them.

The same goes for kindergartens where they store Qassam rockets as well as houses (command centers, launch pads, and barracks).

If they don’t want to have their houses blown up, all they need to do is stop shooting.

Keep in mind that on Sept 29th they (again) fired two rockets, again from civilian locations, which forced us to – again – destroy the rocket launchers.

MR

So is the solution to kill everyone in Gaza? I just think fighting violence with violence is insane

AD

Ok, we will fight it with words.

MR

And

AD

1 second later we will all die. But yes.

(an army that sends children suicide bombers (!!!) and children soldiers (!!!) is NOT an army that you can let grow by not attacking)

MR

I feel that in America, whenever anyone criticizes the policies of the Israeli government, we’re crucified as being anti Israel

AD

Because of your ALLIES.

Example: 2010 UCLA Hillel gave its will to cooperate peacefully, share the events, and help in arranging the events that Students for Justice in Palestine has.

MR

If you destroy schools and homes in Gaza, what do they have left? They take up arms against the army that killed their children

AD

They are allies of the Muslim Student Association, which is from the Muslim Brotherhood, which is also the father of Hamas, which has “remove all Jews from the Middle East” in its charter (paraphrasing). THIS is the problem.

Yes, but you are horribly confused.

Are we destroying Judea & Samaria (AKA Jordan’s West Bank)?

MR

Kind of

AD

Oh! We are?

MR

Not literally

AD

But economically we are reinforcing them (letting them work in Israel (e.g. SodaStream) and in their own locations).

MR

But with the settlements being built unabated, they signal that they don’t want peace

I believe that the West Bank is being occupied illegally by Israel

AD

Ok, so Jews should stay away from Judea (Jews, citizens of Judea).

Then it would NOT be an occupation.

Right?

MR

Stay away from the West Bank? Yes

Either let the West Bank be a legally separate state or annex it fully and give the people living there the full rights and responsibilities of Israeli citizenship

AD

Do you realize the horrible meaning of what you just said (Jews CANNOT live in their own land from thousands of years ago that contains most of Judaism’s important relics and sites)?

MR

It’s the land of the Palestinians too though

We don’t have a divine right to that land

AD

Which Palestinians?

MR

The ones living there

AD

The 2,000 years ago Palestinians, or the 1967 Palestinians?

MR

I also don’t think Israel should control a Jerusalem. I think the UN should. A neutral (at least in theory) body

AD

Let us assume that we gave them all citizenship.

AH! With that I agree, and so did all of Israel, BUT the Arabs disagreed.

They launched a war to PREVENT that from happening.

MR

Yes they did

And Israel defended itself

Which it has the right to do

I’m just saying that the current situation isn’t the way to do it

AD

And if we gave the Palestinians citizenship, then that would mean we would break apart their police & fire & rescue forces, which would (like in 1967) anger them, and they would use all of that anger to bomb us. So, we would be where we were in 1967.

MR

True

I don’t really disagree with you. And I don’t pretend to know the solution

My point is that Israel isn’t blameless, yet whenever I say that I’m branded as anti Israel

AD

Give me a good way to do it. Right now we are giving lots (water, electricity, supplies, visitor’s rights, and more) to the Palestinians for free, and they are mad. We break apart illegal settlements, and they are mad. A person happens to drive by their house, and they are mad and rock or shoot at his car.

MR

Well they’re angry because Israel keeps killing them

It’s an endless cycle of death on both sides

By illegal settlements he means building without a permit not J+S

I mean all of the settlements

AD

HOW are we killing them? Of course Israel isn’t blameless. But we would rather keep our holy sites possible to visit than let a Palestinian State exist there that will not allow Israelis to visit.

Some of these settlements are VERY old.

MR

Ok the post 1967 one

Like I said, there’s a lot I don’t know

So I’m probably contradicting myself here

AD

A MASSIVE amount you don’t know tongue emoticon
Since 1967 means since we conquered it in a DEFENSIVE war. Are we not allowed to keep that?

I thought that when you go to war you can keep what you conquered.

MR

Israel gave up Sinai, why not the West Bank too?

AD

We did NOT give up Sinai. We gave it to Egypt as a part of our peace agreement deal.

And we WOULD give up J&S if there was anyone to give it to.

MR

The PLO

PA

AD

Keep this in mind: in 2008, Olmert’s peace offer, the Palestinians REFUSED to take the J&S\West Bank + get landline to Gaza + Gaza itself.

We tried giving it to them. They don’t want it.

So… Who will take it?

MR

Then fully annex it

Give them real rights

And if they still fire rockets, they fire rockets

AD

We can’t because this would destroy their jobs (no more Palestinian security\fire\emergency services)

And take away the areas that they currently own

MR

So you have to keep occupying them for their own good?

AD

So they would grow mad at us again (like in 1967, look it up)

We are not occupying them. We are preventing them from getting their own airport and border access, yes, but they control everything else.

MR

Do they have the right to vote in Israeli elections? No

AD

They DO have rights to vote in THEIR elections.

They didn’t have an election in the past 10 years, but that is *THEIR* choice.

MR

Elections for a government of a non state isn’t enough

Look you’re right

The Palestinians deserve a lot of blame over the last 60 years

But so does Israel. That’s really my only point

He thinks the UN scrutiny of Israel is also justified

I think scrutiny is healthy

If you violate human rights you violate human rights

It doesn’t matter if they started it

AD

So….. We conquered their area in 1967, those who didn’t or couldn’t want to run away didn’t, and then they got the Oslo accords (Areas A+B+C in J&S), and later they still didn’t want their own area to control (I don’t know why), we forcibly detached from Gaza to force them to take this area as their own, Hamas turned it into a missile fortress of doom-to-its-own-citizens, and they still don’t want their own area in J&S, and…… How are we supposed to handle this?

MR

If I knew the answer to that question, I’d be a very rich and famous man

AD

Yes. We tried giving them everything they wanted but they still turned to crazy terror, and giving them Gaza was the last straw

Then we stopped giving them everything they asked for and decided to limit them.

MR

You just have to keep trying

AD

Then MOST of the terror from the J&S (West Bank) stopped.

MR

Because the one thing everyone can agree on is that the current situation isn’t working

AD

Is, but that is only if you look at the CURRENT happenings.

If you look at the past, you will see that we have tried literally everything.

They don’t want anything but to see us dead because their government is actually Iranian/Syrian. The people themselves actually prefer working for us if they have the chance.

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/half-of-jerusalems-palestinians-would-prefer-israeli-to-palestinian-citizen

Half of Jerusalem’s Palestinians Would Prefer Israeli to Palestinian Citizenship

Findings from a new poll suggest that those who care about democracy and peace should pay more attention to the desires of the Palestinians who actually live in Jerusalem, not just of those who claim to speak on their behalf from outside the city.

washingtoninstitute.org

MR

That’s another thing. Too often it seems like people believe every Palestinian is a terrorist. It’s hard to remember that they’re people too.

Part of my anger stems from where I grew up

If you said anything criticizing Israel in my high school, you were branded an anti-Semite

AD

This is because of the likes of J Street.

MR

They’re the voice of sanity

AD

Abbas (PLO\PA leader) claims that there was a Great State of Palestine that we stole. J Street is the same: ALWAYS against Israel’s opinions, ALWAYS against the IDF existing, ALWAYS against having any Jew in the West Bank, they have previously advertised a fake message by Abbas for peace….

They are the voice of sanity that worships Hitler as a God.

MR

That’s extreme

AD

But it’s true.

MR

Well just have to agree to disagree

Heated rhetoric like that doesn’t serve anyone’s interest

AD

They want to give Hamas whatever it wants, they blame everything on Israel, and if they had their way Hamas would have free reign and what do they want to do? Kill all the Jews. So that’s equal to Hitler by extension.

http://spitfirelist.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Hamas-Soldiers-Saluting.jpg

http://spitfirelist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/IslamicFascism.jpg

This is real, it is NOT a rhetoric means.

MR

No saying J Street worships Hitler

AD

That is equal to saying that they are the voice of sanity.

MR

Well I disagree

They don’t call for the death of all Jews

AD

If everything went J Street’s way, Iran would be nuclear-armed, and Israel would be without an army, and would give up most of its territory to the new Palestinian State.

Yes, they only want the “silent” deaths of every Jew in Israel.

Keep this in mind: the Palestinians constantly declare that they will have a state with NO JEWS in it.

J Street is for giving the Palestinians that state in whatever form they want.

J Street also sponsors Breaking the Silence, which is an anti-IDF group.

So it would mean that Israel has no army, no inventions (e.g. Iron Dome (rockets against rockets)), no nothing against terror.

MR

I didn’t say I agreed with them 100%

But yes Israel should be willing to give the Palestinians land if it means peace

And yes we should talk with Iran

AD

Yes, and no.

MR

And yes the IDF should level whole city blocks in the name of “defense”

Shouldn’t

AD

We WILL give them land for peace, but not Jerusalem and not Tel ADv. And talking to Iran means giving them time to finish their nukes, which the USA will suffer for. Remember how their daily chants go: Israel is Little Satan, USA is Greater Satan. And yes, believe it or not, it is self defense. They launch rockets from these places. Should we let them launch rockets and decimate our cities forever?

L

I just scanned J Street’s wall. Not one good thing about Israel

You have to be crazy to think they are pro Israel

MR

Tel Aviv no. Jerusalem should be neutral. And no, I don’t think talking with Iran means they’ll get nukes. Those chants are hollow. So saying we can’t talk because they say death to Israel or death to America is stupid and unproductive. Destroying thousands of buildings in Gaza isn’t defensive anymore. It’s offensive

MR

Then call me crazy cause I think they’re very pro Israel

AD

They are completely against Israel. In EVERY WAY. When Israel was in its entirety (every single party apart from Haneen’s Arab party) against the talks, they were still for them, The talks do let them get nukes because they mean that the world wants to make a deal that will essentially make them have their nukes 30 years later, but still have these nukes. And yes, if the Palestinians agree to stop terror, then sure.

MR

But how is iran getting nukes in 30 years worse than them getting nukes in 2016?

AD

It isn’t. It is the same type of bad.

MR

Well I have faith that the deal will work

If you don’t then you don’t

AD

I sincerely hope you are right, but it seems to be just wrong.

MR

Ok

My point there is why can’t we try?

You can’t dismiss Iran because it says death to Israel

AD

It’s not just “say”. It’s “do”.

MR

Because they fund Hamas? Of course. But you then try to stop them with other means

You don’t say f*** even talking with them, which guarantees that they get nukes very soon

AD

http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Israel-Navy-intercepts-Gaza-bound-Iranian-rocket-ship-near-Port-Sudan-344369

Not FUNDING Hamas.

Giving ROCKETS to Hamas.

In the nuclear era, they will give nuclear-armed rockets of city destruction and millions dead to Hamas.

MR

Would you rather they give rockets to Hamas while also having nukes?

AD

No, which is why the world needs to act, not to talk.

MR

Act meaning bomb them

Violence begets violence

The Iranians won’t sit back and take it

They’ll fight back

AD

No, it didn’t when we (Israel) bombed many nuclear reactors

No, they would doom themselves then

MR

Doom themselves how?

AD

We will bomb their reactors, and then they will either stay quiet, or they will attack the USA and Israel (because the USA WILL be forced to intervene).

MR

I don’t think it’ll work out that way

AD

They cannot honestly stand against two countries, which would mean that they will turn into Iraq 2.

How else can it go?

MR

We bomb them, they bomb back, and we have another long war in the middle east

AD

That is impossible, because of their location.

They WILL have forces go over USA bases in Iraq or over rebel areas in Syria.

MR

Remember how in 2003 America said the war in Iraq would last a few months months at most?

AD

I never said it would be short. But it will happen.

MR

After how many years, how many billions of dollars, how many thousands of people dead?

Peace is hard

But it’s better than war

AD

Yes, and peace that is earned with e.g. 10,000 dead is MUCH better than a peace 30 years later with ~1,000,000,000 dead (nukes).

MR

Well you believe the deal won’t work and I disagree

And in any event, 30 years from now is preferable to next year

You can’t imagine what the world will be like then

The world in 1985 was a different universe from today

2040 will be much different from 2015

AD

Yes, but that doesn’t matter.

MR

Let’s continue this in a bit. I’m driving home now

AD

Nukes were just as deadly final-weapons then as they are now.

It’s time for bed here in Israel. Bye MR!

L

Take a look, Quebec says that UNWRA refugees aren’t real refugees: http://en.cijnews.com/?p=9209

MR

Why should I care what one judge in Quebec thinks?

I can find a lot of articles saying that Israel committed war crimes in Gaza. There’s a lot of anecdotal evidence supporting either side

The fact remains that most of the world agrees that the occupation/annexation of the West Bank has always been illegal

Maybe that’s why you think the world is against Israel

L

Not always

MR

Not always what?

L

It’s a Russian/Arab propaganda war

They see Israel as a western proxy

MR

Isn’t it though?

America and Israel are attached at the hip

L

The Jews are a Semitic people

Eastern

And honestly sometimes I think Israel is better off without America

Israel survived without them before and can continue

MR

Israel as a state never existed without America

L

The aid is only towards purchasing American weapons which may not be appropriate for the landscape or climate

MR

We share intelligence too

L

America only came into the picture as an ally in 1973

Lots of countries share intelligence

Even “enemies” like Russia and the like

Yeah but not as much or as intimately

Israel didn’t share intelligence much until 1973

MR

Israel certainly needs America more than America needs Israel

L

I wouldn’t be so sure

AD seems to think otherwise and he has good reason to

I’ll wait for him to wake up

MR

You don’t think Iran would be much more likely to bomb Israel if it severed its ties with America?

L

I do not

Iran hates America for being an Israeli proxy but also Israel for being an American proxy

It’s complicated as heck

Many third world countries see Israel as a western outpost

MR

Yes, but if we’re still bffs with Israel, they have to worry about the US military attacking

L

Israel is nearly 70% non-European

Surprisingly

Jews from the Middle East and Africa and Asia plus Arabs and Bedouin make the 70%

Israel is NOT a western country

But it’s modelled after western political systems

MR

And?

Lots of countries aren’t western but are democracies

I think we disagree cause we don’t share the same concerns

Or we think different aspects of the conflict are more important

L

I know some countries aren’t western are democracies

But Israel’s political system was based on the west

Democracy was a western invention

What aspects are most important to you? Mine are safety and security for the Jewish people in a place where can trust that are protected by our government which requires a Jewish majority

We have learned we can’t trust anyone else to protect us

Jewish to me is a culture and ethnicity more than a religion

MR

My priority is respect for the human rights of everyone. Even terrorists.

Judaism is entirely cultural for me

I’m a staunch secularist

L

As am I

I am a staunch secularist and cultural Jew as well

I think the Israeli gov has a lot of issues and am not a fan of the rabbinate. But all countries have issues.

MR

Well I don’t abide by any of the traditions and honestly I think they’re all bullshit. I basically think all religions are horsesh*t.

L

I think traditions should be opt in

I don’t believe in imposing them on anybody but I think a sense of identity is important, to know what your people have been through

What irks me the most about the Palestinian authority is that they want to keep their territory totally Jew free

And push Islamic law on people

Just like I am against the one nation under God spiel in the pledge of allegiance

I see Jews to Israel as Italians to Italy

Rather than Catholics to the Vatican

MR

I agree. Israel is the only pluralistic democratic society in the middle east and that’s something that needs to be protected and preserved. But I believe what Israel has violated human rights. And, Israel is currently responsible for those people

L

I don’t know what else it could have done

Honestly

I also don’t know if it violated human rights, it depends on your definition

There are multiple definitions of human rights?

So can you list the human rights violations so I could get a general idea of what you mean? At least in an organized manner?

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

AD

So, in fact, a country that has a jail is committing the same human rights violations.

On police raids you also have the accidental kills.

So the USA is a war criminal!

And they destroy illegally placed houses too

Amnesty International is not a good source, Marcus. Show me actual evidence that Israel is a war criminal more than the USA, France, Britain, Russia, etc, and THEN I will believe you.

Lastly, Israel has survived through its hardest years as NOT an ally of America. France etc were closer allies than America.

Keep in mind that there CAN NOT be a Palestinian State in J&S (West Bank). If there was, then the Jews would be denied access, like they claim they want since 1967. So it is either Israeli rule, or Palestinian rule. Unless you want that whole area to be UN ruled, which is honestly a bit crazy. This is not something that can be given on a trial attempt, by the way. The Palestinians want to destroy the Jewish holy sites, just like ISIS. On a completely different note, there is an anti-Israel organization that has only 2 members (!!!) in Israel. That organization is J Street. Even the left extreme is not as bad as J Street. On a different side note, I am center-right, maybe just center, or possibly center-left in my political organization. J Street found out I love the IDF and I immediately became a Right Wing Extremist Palestinian Baby Killer to them, and they called me that a few times. And they think the Marmara should have gone through successfully, which essentially means aborting the IDF siege of Gaza, which is letting Hamas get as many rockets and destruction capabilities as it wants. J Street is horrible.

L

AD, I think someone should tell him WHY amnesty is a bad source

I didn’t know this until very recently, I was raised to believe they are the ultimate good

That’s what the North American school system teaches and what uni teaches

Here is the deal with Amnesty as far as I know, they send people to the Palestinian Territories to help people, never into Israel because Israel helps herself. These Palestinians who were raised on an exclusive diet of propaganda and incitement tell the NGO people all the lies and propaganda as they are willing to listen (they do have good intentions and want to help). The Palestinians are taught all their suffering is Israel’s fault, so of course they will give the explanations they are given. They see terrorists as martyrs so they will also want to talk about “wrongful” arrests of people who incite or who are terrorists, acting as if they have been arrested for no reason, or noble resistance. This is how NGO people are brainwashed and the info travels up until the entire NGO develops an anti-Israel stance (along with their anti-western one they got from helping rebuild postcolonial Africa for similar reasons). Their hearts are in the right place but they don’t realize the Palestinians are told to spread lies to them. Why wouldn’t they believe them? It’s easy to side with the oppressed especially if you are an NGO as the cultural context of their lying isn’t fathomed by western groups

Now cultural context: the Arabs are collectivist, the Israelis are a mix. Collectivist means my tribe is always right and everyone else is wrong. If the tribe leader says our tribe has right to their land, one doesn’t question, one believes. Arabs are tribalists. They are an honour-shame culture that prizes homogeneity and the in-group above all else. Veering away from the party line is seen as shaming the tribe and has consequences. Criticizing the actions of the tribe is unheard of. Western groups don’t understand it and see us as all the same, which we are not.

So what happens? Arabs are encouraged to all tell the same story to groups like AI, the story their leaders invent.

So NGOs who help the suffering get only the Palestinian perspective but not Israel’s

THAT is why they are one-sided

MR

Now you guys both sound like conspiracy theorists. Amnesty International isn’t a good enough source? Come on! What sources can I use that you both will believe? Apparently not the UN, since they’re evil and hate Israel, or AI cause they also hate Israel. If you take issues with the well respected international bodies that I cite, then that’s your issue.

AD

Amnesty International calls restricting movements from the Gaza strip as a war crime.

That is NOT a war crime.

MR

That’s a human rights violation

AD

Amnesty international has NO authority after this.

No it is not.

MR

Yes, it is

AD

If it is, then I want free access to the USA.

And the whole world.

Without visas.

MR

That’s not what freedom of movement means

AD

Yes it is.

According to them, it is.

MR

No, it’s not

AD

Re-read the page you sent

MR

The complete blockade of goods is also a human rights violation

AD

That does NOT exist.

MR

Killing nearly 600 children is a war crime

AD

There is NO COMPLETE BLOCKADE. They get goods from us weekly.

MR

Ok sorry not complete

AD

Killing 600 children (armed or otherwise) is a war crime when they are near weapons? Then the USA is a major war criminal.

Go figure out the number of kids killed in the Iraq war.

It is NOT zero.

MR

This is pointless

AD

Yes, because you are trying to place the blame on Israel.

MR

Because they deserve some blame!

AD

While we have been EXTREMELY forgiving at every turn.

L

MR is trying to argue that just because country X does war crimes doesn’t mean country Y who also does war crimes is any more innocent.

MR

That’s my entire fucking point

That Israel has no right to say it’s all their fault

That they’re evil

They have no right

AD

1% of the blame rests on Israel, 99% is the Palestinians (lying, not accepting their own demands, lying again, killing innocents and avoiding military targets (!!!))

MR

Ok

We disagree on those percentages

AD

BUUUUUUUT, that 1% is SHARED across the world.

EVERYONE is as guilty or more than guilty of being a war criminal if Israel is a war criminal.

MR

Israel did not avoid civilian targets in Gaza

AD

Oh? We did not?

MR

You did not

AD

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking

MR:

Are you kidding me?

AD

So roof knocking and calling locations what are about to be destroyed is NOT avoiding civilian casualties?

We let them know before we bombarded the hospital!

TWO DAYS before we bombarded it!

MR

LOL

We bombed a hospital, but we TOLD them before hand so it’s fine!

That sounds batsh*t crazy to me

AD

Join ANY army and learn the process of warfare.

Then you will see that if someone shoots rockets at you from a hospital, that hospital becomes a target.

MR:

I’m sorry, but you can’t make excuses for bombing a hospital

We will never agree on this

I can tell you that

AD

So we should have let them continue to shoot us and ignore the fact that they launch missiles from that hospital?

MR

I have a much different perspective because I’m so far removed from the conflict

AD

And removed from ANY source of logic.

MR

Dude, that’s not fair

AD

You are fighting for their right to shoot rockets at us from a hospital.

MR

I’m operating with logic

AD

We cannot do anything, because it is a hospital.

But they can.

MR

It’s just not logic that you like

It’s always they they they with you

You blame them for everything

You never accept any blame

AD

Do you know Hamas’s charter?

MR

Kill Israel death to Jews probably

I don’t really care

What bothers me is that the PA seems totally off the hook and justified resistance and nobody cares that they are shooting from a damn HOSPITAL. Which shows the PA has zero morals and wants to sacrifice their own people. How does the world not find this glaringly obvious?

How about this

If Israel’s operations were truly defensive

why not allow them to fire rockets from the hospital?

destroy the rockets as they come

but don’t bomb a fucking hospital

Can you see why the world condemns such actions?

When you bomb a hospital

Even if you warn them first

You’re as bad as Hamas

And you don’t agree with me, I know

But that’s what I believe

AD

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4548760,00.htmlOH! So you LIKE having rockets fired at you, spending $100,000 dollars to make a counter-rocket, which was NOT YET INVENTED in the previous wars (!!!), and you like the fact that this rocket CAN MISS,

What bothers me is the fact that I SPECIFICALLY said this yesterday, the whole bombarding a hospital deal, and you were quiet. Today you went somewhere,

Ignore that, I didn’t finish writing tongue emoticon

MR

Sorry I didn’t address every point you made, I was at work while I was typing

AD

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4548760,00.html
OH! So you LIKE having rockets fired at you, spending $100,000 dollars to make a counter-rocket, which was NOT YET INVENTED in the previous wars (!!!), and you like the fact that this rocket CAN MISS, and the fact that their rockets ARE DEADLY AND DESIGNED TO KILL PEOPLE.

What bothers me is the fact that I SPECIFICALLY said this yesterday, the whole bombarding a hospital deal, and you were quiet. Today you went somewhere, got advice on how shooting a hospital is illegal, and woke up to this. You are MAD.

News – VIDEO: Terrorists fire rockets from Gaza hospital

Israel says Hamas uses Wafa hospital compound to attack soldiers, fire anti-tank missiles; ground, air forces attack Gaza City where they claim ‘an entire Hamas brigade is active’; 10 terrorists killed.

ynetnews.com

MR

I got advice? Come on

What if I don’t like those sources?

AD

Then you don’t like ANY Israeli source.

MR

I don’t

They’re biased

I don’t like those sources

AD

Oh! How?

MR

I just don’t

AD

Remember, I was in the IDF

MR

You say you don’t like AI?

I don’t like Israeli sources

AD

I KNOW that what I am saying is true.

MR

LOL

AD

I KNOW that they are being accurate.

I have seen it and heard it.

I hid from Hamas

*Hamas’s missiles

I also got hit once by a Hamas missile

MR

I’m just giving you shit for rejecting right away an article from a respected international organization cause you don’t like the organization

MR

Yes ok

My point is that destroying half of Gaza is not defensive

AD

No, I don’t like it because it calls “walking on the street’ a war crime.

Yes it is, if they shoot from there nonstop.

MR

I disagree

AD

You DO know that at ~midnight three days ago they shot two rockets at Israel, but we destroyed them in midair?

And that alarms sounded and we ran to the shelters?

MR

Should you just kill every Gazan then?

Is that the solution?

Would that still be defensive?

AD

We don’t kill EVERY Gazan. Just the ones that have rockets near them.

If you are hiding rockets, you WILL be targeted.

MR

But you want to

AD

No we don’t

MR

cause Gazans are evil sh*theads that deserve it

AD

We want to live in peace

No one said that.

MR

THAT’S what I feel is bullsh*t

I think Israel doesn’t want peace

AD

Why are we keeping them well and alive if we think they are all evil?

MR

The actions it takes suggest it doesn’t

Cause they’re your responsibility

AD

ONLY if you ignore the fact that we offered them (the PA) TONS and they refused it.

MR

The don’t have a real country

AD

No, we let Gaza go.

MR

They need you

AD

That was SUPPOSED to become a middle eastern Singapore.

MR

Yes, you let Gaza go

And now the only way they get food is if you give it to them

AD

But Hamas won it, killed Fatah (PA) in it, and turned it into a missile fortress.

Check it, 2005-2006, Hamas vs Fatah

Fatah is PA

MR

your rhetoric suggests that Israel is completely blameless

AD

IT IS!!!

MR

It’s all Hamas’ fault

AD

In Gaza, IT IS!!!!!

MR

No, it isn’t

AD

YES IT IS!!!

MR

Agree to disagree

AD

No.

MR

Dude

You will not convince me that Israel is the good guys here

You just won’t

L

Ok so there WAS open borders and no blockade in 2005 when Gaza was handed over to the Palestinians

The blockade came 2 years later in response to terrorist attacks

Israel didn’t want a blockade

AD

You are LITERALLY ignoring the facts (Hamas vs Fatah, killed all Fatah, disconnected from the PA, formed a missile fortress, INSTEAD of the PA’s plans to turn it into a Singapore)

They had no choice if they didn’t want to be destroyed

Hamas sent suicide bombers to kill Israel daily

This *IS* Hamas’s fault. I am not saying this entire CONFLICT. I am only pointing at Gaza.

ALSO!

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/28/gazas-millionaires-and-billionaires-how-hamass-leaders-got-rich-quick/

They had no choice but to have a blockade for weapons and have strict border control

MR

What about the innocent people in Gaza?

AD

Hamas IS SMART. They have RICH neighborhoods (look at my link: http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/28/gazas-millionaires-and-billionaires-how-hamass-leaders-got-rich-quick/ ). These are NOT touched because they are not used to store or fire rockets or anything else

Gaza’s Millionaires and Billionaires — How Hamas’s Leaders Got Rich Quick

Scandalous taxes, bribes, and sheer theft: How top Hamas officials born in poverty became billionaires?

algemeiner.com

They have NOT been touched in a war because of this.

MR

oh I don’t like that source

If you two will just admit that Israel shares the blame

I’ll be happy

AD

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3308/gaza-millionaires

How Many Millionaires Live in the “Impoverished” Gaza Strip?

The world often thinks of the Gaza Strip, home to 1.4 million Palestinians, as one of the poorest places on earth, where people live in misery and squalor. But according to an investigative report published in the pan-Arab newspaper Asharq Al-Awsat,

gatestoneinstitute.org

MR

I’d quote the AI brief but LOL

AD

Israel DOES NOT share the blame on Gaza.

That is PURELY Hamas’s fault.

MR

Ok that’s what you believe

AD

We gave it to them EXTREMELY WILLINGLY.

Back then, WE HAD ONE SUICIDE BOMBING A DAY WITH AT LEAST 1 DEAD AND 30 INJURED.

MR

stop all caps

AD

ALL civilians

Never.

MR

then I’m gonna leave this conversation

AD

I want you realize that Gaza was given as a surrendering gift.

MR

I remember when you pulled out

AD

Do you remember the suicide bombings?

The fact that riding a bus became scary as hell?

MR

Riding a bus is still scary

AD

Not nearly

MR

Cause the wars never stop

In Jerusalem?

AD

Even there

MR

Israel will never have peace

Because having peace means talking with Hamas

AD

No, again, you have no idea what is the charter that Hamas’s members swear to.

MR

And I know, Hamas hates Israel it’s all their fault

AD

They want ALL of Israel with NO Jews in it.

MR

ok

AD

This is their literal charter.

MR

I don’t care what Hamas want

wants

Because

Charters don’t mean shit

AD

But you just showed how you did O_O

MR

it’s all rhetoric

AD

You cannot change your mind completely from one end to another O_O

MR

I believe talking with terrorists is necessary if that would lead to peace

AD

Gaza was given as a gift, with some Israeli tech still inside it, and the PA had to develop it and see how it turns out. Hamas won, the PA lost, Hamas KILLED all the PA in Gaza, and they are still at conflict, and turned it into a missile fortress instead of a Singapore.

But it will not lead to peace. We DID talk to them. We DID give them a major block of land as their own.

MR

So what’s your solution?

AD

And it did NOT lead to peace, only to a missile launching plant.

MR

What’s your solution?

AD

Forget my solution, that isn’t important. What is important is that you have INCREDIBLY wrong ideas.

Gaza was 0% Israel’s fault, just like Mexico is 0% the USA’s fault.

[The two then launched into a tangential tirade with AD saying it’s evil incarnate and MR saying it’s the voice of reason. MR storms out of the conversation and I start a new one just the two of us:]

MR

My issue

Is things like the hospital bombings.

You can’t bomb a hospital and say it’s fine cause we warned them first

That goes beyond defense

Gaza is a clusterf*ck and Hamas is definitely bad

But Israel is not blameless. That’s been my only point the whole time And there has to be a solution that doesn’t involve turning Gaza into a smoldering pile of rubble

I don’t claim to know what that is

L

There sadly isn’t at the moment They literally devote their entire existence to killing us

MR

Yeah I guess I’m Jewish but only in name like it’s not important to me that Israel remains a Jewish state

And by that I mean I’d support the full annexation of the West Bank

L

Unfortunately when they come for the Jews they will still come for you

MR

if that meant the Palestinians had real rights

So you think there’s gonna be a worldwide witch hunt for Jews? I don’t

This is why I think all religion is poisonous

Cause it leads to stupid shit like this

Like, why does Hamas want to kill all the Jews? Why?

L

I know why

Ok so the Jews have made eight 2 state offers

Several included giving them Jerusalem

To understand the conflict you have to understand the precedent Pan Arabism (AKA a form of colonialism) was huge in the Arab world in the 19th century, springing up with other nationalist movements

They saw Israel/British Mandate Palestine as part of that plan

The UN partition plan happened after the Arabs refused to allow Israel to exist

The Arabs rejected the partition plan (a form of compromise). FYI that partition plan included Jerusalem

The UN then shrugged and put it up to a vote and Israel came to be Note that the UN was then mostly western countries because the non-Western countries were still colonized

The Arabs were furious so they waged an existential war against Israel

Six Arab armies Egypt Iraq Syria Lebanon Jordan Saudi Arabia

MR

I know the basic history

L

The Arabs lost

Nobody expected this because the US wasn’t helping

This was HUMILIATING for them

Remember, their culture is tribal

They don’t accept losing

Every time they hear of Israel it’s humiliating

Israel doing better than them is humiliating

But anyway, they have remained stubborn ever since because Nasser and the other early PLO leaders were very pan Arabist and indoctrinated the youth with that mentality

That the ends justify the means

So they literally see giving up as shameful and losing honour and they would literally rather die than do that So that’s why they continue

The ideology is secular but fueled by religion

The religion gives it the zeal Israel is only defending itself, it doesn’t want to start any wars and is following the rules of basic warfare. It’s just that no western army had to deal with an enemy like that

MR

And I think, given the right circumstances or incentives, they will lay down their arms

L

I actually have a good plan for this

MR

I think the wars in Gaza go beyond defense

L

The Sinai peninsula is very sparsely populated

And was once Israel’s anyway

Israel should strike a deal with Egypt – either for Israel to build infrastructure, modern water and sewage treatment, etc.

In exchange for Sinai to give to the Palestinians

MR

I disagree on that too The Sinai was Israel’s part

[He doesn’t think the 1967 territory conquering was just or abided by international law]

L: The Palestinians will have a state

Right of return to that area

The will have the choice

Stay in Israel and become Israeli with full rights

Or leave and join a state ruled by your own people

MR

What about Jerusalem?

L

They don’t actually care about Jerusalem, it’s a red herring

Many of the two state plans gave them Jerusalem and they refused

They want the entire land to be Arab. Full stop.

They refuse to compromise

It’s ideological

They see everyone else as inherently dhimmis

MR

UGH

L

I know it’s frustrating

MR

I feel like there’s an easy solution to all of this

L

They don’t care about Al Aqsa

It was in ruin before the 1960’s

MR

Israel, put your d*cks away. Palestinians, put your d*cks away

Problem solved

L

lol

When Nasser injected religious zeal into it

And it suddenly became holy It was in disrepair until then I saw pics

Muslims didn’t care about it until Israel wanted it then they use it as something they have against us

Mecca and Medina are their holy cities

The entire Palestinian story from what I know seems fabricated

Pan Arabism is at the core

And it should be known for what it is: colonialism

MR

Maybe the real solution is to relocate the entire nation of Israel

To Nunavut

L

If the Jews put away their weapons there will be no Israel. Israel tried diplomacy and they refuse to budge and keep starting wars

Haha it’s too late for Nunavut

MR

Israel should defend itself

Yes but some of its tactics are disgusting just like Hamas

L

I just don’t see what else they can do strategically

MR

The truth is this

Neither do I

Even IF Israel’s actions are disgusting

Which is why this conflict is so fucking complicated

L

Hamas started it so it IS 100% their fault

Israel warned them of what will happen They still did it

MR

Hamas started it isn’t really an excuse

L

Even if it isn’t but it’s still their fault

They started every single war since Israel’s inception

They could have just stopped starting shit and there would be peace

MR

Yeah I pretty much agree with you

L

Here’s the thing sadly

The language in the Arab world IS aggression. Doesn’t make it right

But it’s how you gain respect with tribalist groups

And scare them from attacking you

It’s messed up and doesn’t justify it

But that’s the logic here. We have no other option.

MR

I think that’s what I’ve been trying to say

To show them who is boss Israel can bomb hospitals in Gaza and say its defensive

That doesn’t make it ok

Doesn’t make it right

L

It is what has to be done to save Israel. When push comes to shove we have to value our own lives when it’s either or.

MR

And if that’s a sacrifice that Israel’s willing to make, that’s ok

But you can’t be surprised when the rest of the world finds it disgusting

L

any other country would make the same sacrifice if they were in that situation

it’s how defensive warfare works

they think it’s disgusting because they’ve never had to deal with it

MR

And I’m sure the world community would condemn them too

Exactly.

L

Except USA did that in Iraq

and Afghanistan

worse even.

MR

Oh 100%

L

People do condemn them but nowhere near how they condemn Israel

MR

I think Dick Cheney should be sent to the Hague

GWB too

L

LOL

I don’t know what kind of intel they had though

we can’t and won’t know.

MR

They faked the intel

There was none

Saddam wasn’t a good guy

But look what happened when we took him out

Iraq is probably worse off

L

They created a power vacuum

it was so poorly planned

MR

Yes

And the US government was shamed for that

L

but the world isn’t trying to boycott the USA

if Iraq kept attacking USA you’d better believe they’d respond like Israel

as a deterrent

MR

Well that’s cause we can’t be boycotted

L

well neither can Israel technically.

Everyone would have to turn off their computers

MR

I don’t hate Israel

But should Israel be held accountable for its actions? Yes, even if they’re defensive in nature

If you accidentally run over and kill a person in your car

You still get charged with manslaughter even if you didn’t mean to

Not a perfect analogy, but it kinda works

L

Well if you shoot someone who is trying to kill you

That’s self defense

You don’t get punished

This is a better comparison

MR

What if that person is a child?

L

If the child has a gun or their parents are using them as a shield technically that’s also self defense

MR

It is, but it’s also disgusting

L

Yes

But it’s disgusting of the parent

The person defending themselves has zero choice

MR

Doesn’t make it any less disgusting. And that’s my point

Israel may have no good choices

But those bad choices are still bad

So like in Gaza

When Israel levels whole blocks

It might be defensive cause Hamas stores rockets in houses and hospitals

But it’s still horrible when Israel destroys them

And they’re ok with that. The rest of the world isn’t.

L

You’re saying Israel has no other choice. Why should they be faulted for that? Why does Israel get more flack than, say, Syria’s regime for murdering their own people. I don’t see anyone trying to boycott Syria. Or Saudi Arabia. How do they deal with Saudi’s human rights violations? They make them head of the human rights council! It was Hamas and the PA who put Israel in a corner and they should take the blame for it. Period. It’s why if someone gives you no choice but to shoot them (is pointing a gun to you and shooting toward you and you have no choice but to neutralize them by shooting back to save your life), they take 100% of the blame in court. And that’s how the world should see Israel. Because Israel is obviously held up to a double-standard at the UN because of widespread anti-western and antisemitic sentiment.

MR

They should be held accountable for their actions just like every other country. You want to boycott every country that violates human rights? That’s a long list.

Why should Israel be exempt from accountability? Any country that bombs hospitals and kills children should be called out on it

Just today it seems that a US airstrike in Afghanistan killed 16 people including children. That’s also horrible and we should be condemned for that

Israel should not get special treatment

I’m by no means saying the PA and Hamas are the good guys here. It’s just the idea that Israel should never be questioned in these matters is insane

L

The problem is, the world likes to obscure what is provoking Israel endlessly.

The world is harsher on all other countries.

I’m not saying Israel shouldn’t be accountable, I’m saying its circumstances should be taken into account.

Does it make any sense that of all the human rights abusers in the world, ISRAEL is the one that is the ONLY one singled out, with 62 resolutions against compared to a maximum of ONE against the second highest country.

If someone is shooting at my house and I finally shoot back, should I be held accountable for the sniper’s death? No.

I am Israel.

MR

Yeah it’s excessive

But lucky for you and for Israel

the UN doesn’t have much power to actually enforce anything

No country has the right to kill children. No one has the right to indiscriminately bomb entire city blocks. No one

I’m including America here

We’ve done a lot of really horrible sh*t.

L

Yes, and it’s unfortunate, but life is unfortunate. Sometimes there really isn’t anything we can do about the injustice in the world.

Sometimes you are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

It’s how the world is.

We need to at least acknowledge Israel has its hands tied. Take that into account when compared to other countries that that do not, or that provoke.

If the Palestinians drop their weapons, there will be peace. If Israel drops their weapons, there will be no Israel. Take that into consideration when thinking about who to blame.

MR

You’re right. But I still don’t think what happened in Gaza is ok

L

Nobody here does. Nothing will ever make it okay. The most horrible part is that Israel didn’t want to kill any innocents, they literally had no choice.

MR

I know. It’s a real tragedy.

Maybe the alternative is to evacuate a safety zone within a few miles of the border

Prohibit anyone from living there

That way when the rockets fall they kill no one

L

Again, Hamas purposely puts rockets in densely populated areas

the reason for that is, Israel is instructed NOT to fire a missile if there are civilians

and Hamas is taking advantage.

that’s the most horrible part of this war.

They are doing this to smear Israel and demonize them to the world.

And it’s working.

MR:

Yeah. I don’t know the answers

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Lex is a trained comedy actor who is Montreal's second-favourite export aside from poutine.