J Street, the movement funded by George Soros, is growing in the United States. Strongly aligned with the Democratic Party, J Street is known for its constant criticism of Israel, strong support for the Iran Deal, and lying about being “pro-Israel.” They are seen as a leftist alternative to AIPAC, for people who feel alienated from the mainstream Jewish “unquestioning support for Israel.” Sadly, in the last few years, J Street has become the mainstream Jewish voice – it has infiltrated many Hillels across America, and some Jewish Federations have even started adopting their principles. The typical J Streeter was raised in an academic or intellectual family, on a strong diet of New York Times, BBC, and other anti-Israel outlets who take both “narratives” at face value and believe they deserve equal consideration despite endless proof that one side is lying. It is part of the same leftist “love thy enemy” culture that brought you young American USSR supporters during the Cold War, but now it’s become the norm among young students who are politically engaged.
This is what will happen if we don’t instill a strong sense of Jewish identity in our children.
Consider the following in the context of my Hasbara Guide. Could you keep track of which of my tips and tricks we used and when?
L = Me, Lex.
AD = Age 26, an Israeli who is a very close friend of mine and worked in intelligence while serving in the IDF.
MR = J Streeter. An old friend of mine from Summer Camp (a camp in Upstate New York that was mostly Jews), MR is 24, a graduate of NYU, and represents the typical viewpoint of an assimilated American Jew (I should know, I live here).
L
I feel like AD is the best guy to answer your questions. He knows literally everything
About Israel because he’s there and on the ground
AD
Ask away smile emoticon
My brain is simply too fried from grad school
MR
I don’t really have any questions. Just opinions lol
Share them
Just that I believe both sides of the conflict have blood on their hands. Israel is not innocent
Hamas is a terrorist organization but not everyone in Gaza deserves to have their homes and businesses destroyed
AD
Now, this is a lengthy answer.
L
AD is agnostic. Just so you know. Completely secular. Doesn’t celebrate any holiday except Purim because partying
AD
I agree with the fact that Israel is not innocent. No country that has went to war did so without killing and harming innocent civilians and their property. Sometimes this is due to bad aiming, sometimes this is due to the enemy shooting from an area where there are civilians, there are many reasons.
But, you are right. Not every person in Gaza deserves to have their home destroyed by Israeli bombings. This is why we, Israel, keep delivering tons of supplies every week through supply convoys that goes to Hamas and we even give them free electricity (*FREE* – they are millions of USD in debt but we cannot let them live without it, despite all the trouble that we get from giving them electricity (e.g. rocket manufacturing plants)).
This is the reason the Hamas and Fatah keep fighting each other. If you don’t know, Hamas is Muslim Brotherhood (Islam, Iran, Syria), and Fatah is the Palestinians (Palestinian Liberation Organization and later Palestinian Authority’s actual army).
They are at odds even now – in their “unified government” Fatah keeps withholding Hamas’s payments.
Fatah cares for the Palestinians and would NEVER let a hospital be destroyed. But, the Gaza Hospital was used (by Hamas) to launch rockets at Israel. If it does this, there is no reason to call it a civilian location: we called them, warned them, and later bombed them.
The same goes for kindergartens where they store Qassam rockets as well as houses (command centers, launch pads, and barracks).
If they don’t want to have their houses blown up, all they need to do is stop shooting.
Keep in mind that on Sept 29th they (again) fired two rockets, again from civilian locations, which forced us to – again – destroy the rocket launchers.
MR
So is the solution to kill everyone in Gaza? I just think fighting violence with violence is insane
AD
Ok, we will fight it with words.
MR
And
AD
1 second later we will all die. But yes.
(an army that sends children suicide bombers (!!!) and children soldiers (!!!) is NOT an army that you can let grow by not attacking)
MR
I feel that in America, whenever anyone criticizes the policies of the Israeli government, we’re crucified as being anti Israel
AD
Because of your ALLIES.
Example: 2010 UCLA Hillel gave its will to cooperate peacefully, share the events, and help in arranging the events that Students for Justice in Palestine has.
MR
If you destroy schools and homes in Gaza, what do they have left? They take up arms against the army that killed their children
AD
They are allies of the Muslim Student Association, which is from the Muslim Brotherhood, which is also the father of Hamas, which has “remove all Jews from the Middle East” in its charter (paraphrasing). THIS is the problem.
Yes, but you are horribly confused.
Are we destroying Judea & Samaria (AKA Jordan’s West Bank)?
MR
Kind of
AD
Oh! We are?
MR
Not literally
AD
But economically we are reinforcing them (letting them work in Israel (e.g. SodaStream) and in their own locations).
MR
But with the settlements being built unabated, they signal that they don’t want peace
I believe that the West Bank is being occupied illegally by Israel
AD
Ok, so Jews should stay away from Judea (Jews, citizens of Judea).
Then it would NOT be an occupation.
Right?
MR
Stay away from the West Bank? Yes
Either let the West Bank be a legally separate state or annex it fully and give the people living there the full rights and responsibilities of Israeli citizenship
AD
Do you realize the horrible meaning of what you just said (Jews CANNOT live in their own land from thousands of years ago that contains most of Judaism’s important relics and sites)?
MR
It’s the land of the Palestinians too though
We don’t have a divine right to that land
AD
Which Palestinians?
MR
The ones living there
AD
The 2,000 years ago Palestinians, or the 1967 Palestinians?
MR
I also don’t think Israel should control a Jerusalem. I think the UN should. A neutral (at least in theory) body
AD
Let us assume that we gave them all citizenship.
AH! With that I agree, and so did all of Israel, BUT the Arabs disagreed.
They launched a war to PREVENT that from happening.
MR
Yes they did
And Israel defended itself
Which it has the right to do
I’m just saying that the current situation isn’t the way to do it
AD
And if we gave the Palestinians citizenship, then that would mean we would break apart their police & fire & rescue forces, which would (like in 1967) anger them, and they would use all of that anger to bomb us. So, we would be where we were in 1967.
MR
True
I don’t really disagree with you. And I don’t pretend to know the solution
My point is that Israel isn’t blameless, yet whenever I say that I’m branded as anti Israel
AD
Give me a good way to do it. Right now we are giving lots (water, electricity, supplies, visitor’s rights, and more) to the Palestinians for free, and they are mad. We break apart illegal settlements, and they are mad. A person happens to drive by their house, and they are mad and rock or shoot at his car.
MR
Well they’re angry because Israel keeps killing them
It’s an endless cycle of death on both sides
By illegal settlements he means building without a permit not J+S
I mean all of the settlements
AD
HOW are we killing them? Of course Israel isn’t blameless. But we would rather keep our holy sites possible to visit than let a Palestinian State exist there that will not allow Israelis to visit.
Some of these settlements are VERY old.
MR
Ok the post 1967 one
Like I said, there’s a lot I don’t know
So I’m probably contradicting myself here
AD
A MASSIVE amount you don’t know tongue emoticon
Since 1967 means since we conquered it in a DEFENSIVE war. Are we not allowed to keep that?
I thought that when you go to war you can keep what you conquered.
MR
Israel gave up Sinai, why not the West Bank too?
AD
We did NOT give up Sinai. We gave it to Egypt as a part of our peace agreement deal.
And we WOULD give up J&S if there was anyone to give it to.
MR
The PLO
PA
AD
Keep this in mind: in 2008, Olmert’s peace offer, the Palestinians REFUSED to take the J&SWest Bank + get landline to Gaza + Gaza itself.
We tried giving it to them. They don’t want it.
So… Who will take it?
MR
Then fully annex it
Give them real rights
And if they still fire rockets, they fire rockets
AD
We can’t because this would destroy their jobs (no more Palestinian securityfireemergency services)
And take away the areas that they currently own
MR
So you have to keep occupying them for their own good?
AD
So they would grow mad at us again (like in 1967, look it up)
We are not occupying them. We are preventing them from getting their own airport and border access, yes, but they control everything else.
MR
Do they have the right to vote in Israeli elections? No
AD
They DO have rights to vote in THEIR elections.
They didn’t have an election in the past 10 years, but that is *THEIR* choice.
MR
Elections for a government of a non state isn’t enough
Look you’re right
The Palestinians deserve a lot of blame over the last 60 years
But so does Israel. That’s really my only point
He thinks the UN scrutiny of Israel is also justified
I think scrutiny is healthy
If you violate human rights you violate human rights
It doesn’t matter if they started it
AD
So….. We conquered their area in 1967, those who didn’t or couldn’t want to run away didn’t, and then they got the Oslo accords (Areas A+B+C in J&S), and later they still didn’t want their own area to control (I don’t know why), we forcibly detached from Gaza to force them to take this area as their own, Hamas turned it into a missile fortress of doom-to-its-own-citizens, and they still don’t want their own area in J&S, and…… How are we supposed to handle this?
MR
If I knew the answer to that question, I’d be a very rich and famous man
AD
Yes. We tried giving them everything they wanted but they still turned to crazy terror, and giving them Gaza was the last straw
Then we stopped giving them everything they asked for and decided to limit them.
MR
You just have to keep trying
AD
Then MOST of the terror from the J&S (West Bank) stopped.
MR
Because the one thing everyone can agree on is that the current situation isn’t working
AD
Is, but that is only if you look at the CURRENT happenings.
If you look at the past, you will see that we have tried literally everything.
They don’t want anything but to see us dead because their government is actually Iranian/Syrian. The people themselves actually prefer working for us if they have the chance.
Half of Jerusalem’s Palestinians Would Prefer Israeli to Palestinian Citizenship
MR
That’s another thing. Too often it seems like people believe every Palestinian is a terrorist. It’s hard to remember that they’re people too.
Part of my anger stems from where I grew up
If you said anything criticizing Israel in my high school, you were branded an anti-Semite
AD
This is because of the likes of J Street.
MR
They’re the voice of sanity
AD
Abbas (PLOPA leader) claims that there was a Great State of Palestine that we stole. J Street is the same: ALWAYS against Israel’s opinions, ALWAYS against the IDF existing, ALWAYS against having any Jew in the West Bank, they have previously advertised a fake message by Abbas for peace….
They are the voice of sanity that worships Hitler as a God.
MR
That’s extreme
AD
But it’s true.
MR
Well just have to agree to disagree
Heated rhetoric like that doesn’t serve anyone’s interest
AD
They want to give Hamas whatever it wants, they blame everything on Israel, and if they had their way Hamas would have free reign and what do they want to do? Kill all the Jews. So that’s equal to Hitler by extension.
http://spitfirelist.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Hamas-Soldiers-Saluting.jpg
http://spitfirelist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/IslamicFascism.jpg
This is real, it is NOT a rhetoric means.
MR
No saying J Street worships Hitler
AD
That is equal to saying that they are the voice of sanity.
MR
Well I disagree
They don’t call for the death of all Jews
AD
If everything went J Street’s way, Iran would be nuclear-armed, and Israel would be without an army, and would give up most of its territory to the new Palestinian State.
Yes, they only want the “silent” deaths of every Jew in Israel.
Keep this in mind: the Palestinians constantly declare that they will have a state with NO JEWS in it.
J Street is for giving the Palestinians that state in whatever form they want.
J Street also sponsors Breaking the Silence, which is an anti-IDF group.
So it would mean that Israel has no army, no inventions (e.g. Iron Dome (rockets against rockets)), no nothing against terror.
MR
I didn’t say I agreed with them 100%
But yes Israel should be willing to give the Palestinians land if it means peace
And yes we should talk with Iran
AD
Yes, and no.
MR
And yes the IDF should level whole city blocks in the name of “defense”
Shouldn’t
AD
We WILL give them land for peace, but not Jerusalem and not Tel ADv. And talking to Iran means giving them time to finish their nukes, which the USA will suffer for. Remember how their daily chants go: Israel is Little Satan, USA is Greater Satan. And yes, believe it or not, it is self defense. They launch rockets from these places. Should we let them launch rockets and decimate our cities forever?
L
I just scanned J Street’s wall. Not one good thing about Israel
You have to be crazy to think they are pro Israel
MR
Tel Aviv no. Jerusalem should be neutral. And no, I don’t think talking with Iran means they’ll get nukes. Those chants are hollow. So saying we can’t talk because they say death to Israel or death to America is stupid and unproductive. Destroying thousands of buildings in Gaza isn’t defensive anymore. It’s offensive
MR
Then call me crazy cause I think they’re very pro Israel
AD
They are completely against Israel. In EVERY WAY. When Israel was in its entirety (every single party apart from Haneen’s Arab party) against the talks, they were still for them, The talks do let them get nukes because they mean that the world wants to make a deal that will essentially make them have their nukes 30 years later, but still have these nukes. And yes, if the Palestinians agree to stop terror, then sure.
MR
But how is iran getting nukes in 30 years worse than them getting nukes in 2016?
AD
It isn’t. It is the same type of bad.
MR
Well I have faith that the deal will work
If you don’t then you don’t
AD
I sincerely hope you are right, but it seems to be just wrong.
MR
Ok
My point there is why can’t we try?
You can’t dismiss Iran because it says death to Israel
AD
It’s not just “say”. It’s “do”.
MR
Because they fund Hamas? Of course. But you then try to stop them with other means
You don’t say f*** even talking with them, which guarantees that they get nukes very soon
AD
Not FUNDING Hamas.
Giving ROCKETS to Hamas.
In the nuclear era, they will give nuclear-armed rockets of city destruction and millions dead to Hamas.
MR
Would you rather they give rockets to Hamas while also having nukes?
AD
No, which is why the world needs to act, not to talk.
MR
Act meaning bomb them
Violence begets violence
The Iranians won’t sit back and take it
They’ll fight back
AD
No, it didn’t when we (Israel) bombed many nuclear reactors
No, they would doom themselves then
MR
Doom themselves how?
AD
We will bomb their reactors, and then they will either stay quiet, or they will attack the USA and Israel (because the USA WILL be forced to intervene).
MR
I don’t think it’ll work out that way
AD
They cannot honestly stand against two countries, which would mean that they will turn into Iraq 2.
How else can it go?
MR
We bomb them, they bomb back, and we have another long war in the middle east
AD
That is impossible, because of their location.
They WILL have forces go over USA bases in Iraq or over rebel areas in Syria.
MR
Remember how in 2003 America said the war in Iraq would last a few months months at most?
AD
I never said it would be short. But it will happen.
MR
After how many years, how many billions of dollars, how many thousands of people dead?
Peace is hard
But it’s better than war
AD
Yes, and peace that is earned with e.g. 10,000 dead is MUCH better than a peace 30 years later with ~1,000,000,000 dead (nukes).
MR
Well you believe the deal won’t work and I disagree
And in any event, 30 years from now is preferable to next year
You can’t imagine what the world will be like then
The world in 1985 was a different universe from today
2040 will be much different from 2015
AD
Yes, but that doesn’t matter.
MR
Let’s continue this in a bit. I’m driving home now
AD
Nukes were just as deadly final-weapons then as they are now.
It’s time for bed here in Israel. Bye MR!
L
Take a look, Quebec says that UNWRA refugees aren’t real refugees: http://en.cijnews.com/?p=9209
MR
Why should I care what one judge in Quebec thinks?
I can find a lot of articles saying that Israel committed war crimes in Gaza. There’s a lot of anecdotal evidence supporting either side
The fact remains that most of the world agrees that the occupation/annexation of the West Bank has always been illegal
Maybe that’s why you think the world is against Israel
L
Not always
MR
Not always what?
L
It’s a Russian/Arab propaganda war
They see Israel as a western proxy
MR
Isn’t it though?
America and Israel are attached at the hip
L
The Jews are a Semitic people
Eastern
And honestly sometimes I think Israel is better off without America
Israel survived without them before and can continue
MR
Israel as a state never existed without America
L
The aid is only towards purchasing American weapons which may not be appropriate for the landscape or climate
MR
We share intelligence too
L
America only came into the picture as an ally in 1973
Lots of countries share intelligence
Even “enemies” like Russia and the like
Yeah but not as much or as intimately
Israel didn’t share intelligence much until 1973
MR
Israel certainly needs America more than America needs Israel
L
I wouldn’t be so sure
AD seems to think otherwise and he has good reason to
I’ll wait for him to wake up
MR
You don’t think Iran would be much more likely to bomb Israel if it severed its ties with America?
L
I do not
Iran hates America for being an Israeli proxy but also Israel for being an American proxy
It’s complicated as heck
Many third world countries see Israel as a western outpost
MR
Yes, but if we’re still bffs with Israel, they have to worry about the US military attacking
L
Israel is nearly 70% non-European
Surprisingly
Jews from the Middle East and Africa and Asia plus Arabs and Bedouin make the 70%
Israel is NOT a western country
But it’s modelled after western political systems
MR
And?
Lots of countries aren’t western but are democracies
I think we disagree cause we don’t share the same concerns
Or we think different aspects of the conflict are more important
L
I know some countries aren’t western are democracies
But Israel’s political system was based on the west
Democracy was a western invention
What aspects are most important to you? Mine are safety and security for the Jewish people in a place where can trust that are protected by our government which requires a Jewish majority
We have learned we can’t trust anyone else to protect us
Jewish to me is a culture and ethnicity more than a religion
MR
My priority is respect for the human rights of everyone. Even terrorists.
Judaism is entirely cultural for me
I’m a staunch secularist
L
As am I
I am a staunch secularist and cultural Jew as well
I think the Israeli gov has a lot of issues and am not a fan of the rabbinate. But all countries have issues.
MR
Well I don’t abide by any of the traditions and honestly I think they’re all bullshit. I basically think all religions are horsesh*t.
L
I think traditions should be opt in
I don’t believe in imposing them on anybody but I think a sense of identity is important, to know what your people have been through
What irks me the most about the Palestinian authority is that they want to keep their territory totally Jew free
And push Islamic law on people
Just like I am against the one nation under God spiel in the pledge of allegiance
I see Jews to Israel as Italians to Italy
Rather than Catholics to the Vatican
MR
I agree. Israel is the only pluralistic democratic society in the middle east and that’s something that needs to be protected and preserved. But I believe what Israel has violated human rights. And, Israel is currently responsible for those people
L
I don’t know what else it could have done
Honestly
I also don’t know if it violated human rights, it depends on your definition
There are multiple definitions of human rights?
So can you list the human rights violations so I could get a general idea of what you mean? At least in an organized manner?
AD
So, in fact, a country that has a jail is committing the same human rights violations.
On police raids you also have the accidental kills.
So the USA is a war criminal!
And they destroy illegally placed houses too
Amnesty International is not a good source, Marcus. Show me actual evidence that Israel is a war criminal more than the USA, France, Britain, Russia, etc, and THEN I will believe you.
Lastly, Israel has survived through its hardest years as NOT an ally of America. France etc were closer allies than America.
Keep in mind that there CAN NOT be a Palestinian State in J&S (West Bank). If there was, then the Jews would be denied access, like they claim they want since 1967. So it is either Israeli rule, or Palestinian rule. Unless you want that whole area to be UN ruled, which is honestly a bit crazy. This is not something that can be given on a trial attempt, by the way. The Palestinians want to destroy the Jewish holy sites, just like ISIS. On a completely different note, there is an anti-Israel organization that has only 2 members (!!!) in Israel. That organization is J Street. Even the left extreme is not as bad as J Street. On a different side note, I am center-right, maybe just center, or possibly center-left in my political organization. J Street found out I love the IDF and I immediately became a Right Wing Extremist Palestinian Baby Killer to them, and they called me that a few times. And they think the Marmara should have gone through successfully, which essentially means aborting the IDF siege of Gaza, which is letting Hamas get as many rockets and destruction capabilities as it wants. J Street is horrible.
L
AD, I think someone should tell him WHY amnesty is a bad source
I didn’t know this until very recently, I was raised to believe they are the ultimate good
That’s what the North American school system teaches and what uni teaches
Here is the deal with Amnesty as far as I know, they send people to the Palestinian Territories to help people, never into Israel because Israel helps herself. These Palestinians who were raised on an exclusive diet of propaganda and incitement tell the NGO people all the lies and propaganda as they are willing to listen (they do have good intentions and want to help). The Palestinians are taught all their suffering is Israel’s fault, so of course they will give the explanations they are given. They see terrorists as martyrs so they will also want to talk about “wrongful” arrests of people who incite or who are terrorists, acting as if they have been arrested for no reason, or noble resistance. This is how NGO people are brainwashed and the info travels up until the entire NGO develops an anti-Israel stance (along with their anti-western one they got from helping rebuild postcolonial Africa for similar reasons). Their hearts are in the right place but they don’t realize the Palestinians are told to spread lies to them. Why wouldn’t they believe them? It’s easy to side with the oppressed especially if you are an NGO as the cultural context of their lying isn’t fathomed by western groups
Now cultural context: the Arabs are collectivist, the Israelis are a mix. Collectivist means my tribe is always right and everyone else is wrong. If the tribe leader says our tribe has right to their land, one doesn’t question, one believes. Arabs are tribalists. They are an honour-shame culture that prizes homogeneity and the in-group above all else. Veering away from the party line is seen as shaming the tribe and has consequences. Criticizing the actions of the tribe is unheard of. Western groups don’t understand it and see us as all the same, which we are not.
So what happens? Arabs are encouraged to all tell the same story to groups like AI, the story their leaders invent.
So NGOs who help the suffering get only the Palestinian perspective but not Israel’s
THAT is why they are one-sided
MR
Now you guys both sound like conspiracy theorists. Amnesty International isn’t a good enough source? Come on! What sources can I use that you both will believe? Apparently not the UN, since they’re evil and hate Israel, or AI cause they also hate Israel. If you take issues with the well respected international bodies that I cite, then that’s your issue.
AD
Amnesty International calls restricting movements from the Gaza strip as a war crime.
That is NOT a war crime.
MR
That’s a human rights violation
AD
Amnesty international has NO authority after this.
No it is not.
MR
Yes, it is
AD
If it is, then I want free access to the USA.
And the whole world.
Without visas.
MR
That’s not what freedom of movement means
AD
Yes it is.
According to them, it is.
MR
No, it’s not
AD
Re-read the page you sent
MR
The complete blockade of goods is also a human rights violation
AD
That does NOT exist.
MR
Killing nearly 600 children is a war crime
AD
There is NO COMPLETE BLOCKADE. They get goods from us weekly.
MR
Ok sorry not complete
AD
Killing 600 children (armed or otherwise) is a war crime when they are near weapons? Then the USA is a major war criminal.
Go figure out the number of kids killed in the Iraq war.
It is NOT zero.
MR
This is pointless
AD
Yes, because you are trying to place the blame on Israel.
MR
Because they deserve some blame!
AD
While we have been EXTREMELY forgiving at every turn.
L
MR is trying to argue that just because country X does war crimes doesn’t mean country Y who also does war crimes is any more innocent.
MR
That’s my entire fucking point
That Israel has no right to say it’s all their fault
That they’re evil
They have no right
AD
1% of the blame rests on Israel, 99% is the Palestinians (lying, not accepting their own demands, lying again, killing innocents and avoiding military targets (!!!))
MR
Ok
We disagree on those percentages
AD
BUUUUUUUT, that 1% is SHARED across the world.
EVERYONE is as guilty or more than guilty of being a war criminal if Israel is a war criminal.
MR
Israel did not avoid civilian targets in Gaza
AD
Oh? We did not?
MR
You did not
AD
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking
MR:
Are you kidding me?
AD
So roof knocking and calling locations what are about to be destroyed is NOT avoiding civilian casualties?
We let them know before we bombarded the hospital!
TWO DAYS before we bombarded it!
MR
LOL
We bombed a hospital, but we TOLD them before hand so it’s fine!
That sounds batsh*t crazy to me
AD
Join ANY army and learn the process of warfare.
Then you will see that if someone shoots rockets at you from a hospital, that hospital becomes a target.
MR:
I’m sorry, but you can’t make excuses for bombing a hospital
We will never agree on this
I can tell you that
AD
So we should have let them continue to shoot us and ignore the fact that they launch missiles from that hospital?
MR
I have a much different perspective because I’m so far removed from the conflict
AD
And removed from ANY source of logic.
MR
Dude, that’s not fair
AD
You are fighting for their right to shoot rockets at us from a hospital.
MR
I’m operating with logic
AD
We cannot do anything, because it is a hospital.
But they can.
MR
It’s just not logic that you like
It’s always they they they with you
You blame them for everything
You never accept any blame
AD
Do you know Hamas’s charter?
MR
Kill Israel death to Jews probably
I don’t really care
What bothers me is that the PA seems totally off the hook and justified resistance and nobody cares that they are shooting from a damn HOSPITAL. Which shows the PA has zero morals and wants to sacrifice their own people. How does the world not find this glaringly obvious?
How about this
If Israel’s operations were truly defensive
why not allow them to fire rockets from the hospital?
destroy the rockets as they come
but don’t bomb a fucking hospital
Can you see why the world condemns such actions?
When you bomb a hospital
Even if you warn them first
You’re as bad as Hamas
And you don’t agree with me, I know
But that’s what I believe
AD
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4548760,00.htmlOH! So you LIKE having rockets fired at you, spending $100,000 dollars to make a counter-rocket, which was NOT YET INVENTED in the previous wars (!!!), and you like the fact that this rocket CAN MISS,
What bothers me is the fact that I SPECIFICALLY said this yesterday, the whole bombarding a hospital deal, and you were quiet. Today you went somewhere,
Ignore that, I didn’t finish writing tongue emoticon
MR
Sorry I didn’t address every point you made, I was at work while I was typing
AD
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4548760,00.html
OH! So you LIKE having rockets fired at you, spending $100,000 dollars to make a counter-rocket, which was NOT YET INVENTED in the previous wars (!!!), and you like the fact that this rocket CAN MISS, and the fact that their rockets ARE DEADLY AND DESIGNED TO KILL PEOPLE.
What bothers me is the fact that I SPECIFICALLY said this yesterday, the whole bombarding a hospital deal, and you were quiet. Today you went somewhere, got advice on how shooting a hospital is illegal, and woke up to this. You are MAD.
News – VIDEO: Terrorists fire rockets from Gaza hospital
MR
I got advice? Come on
What if I don’t like those sources?
AD
Then you don’t like ANY Israeli source.
MR
I don’t
They’re biased
I don’t like those sources
AD
Oh! How?
MR
I just don’t
AD
Remember, I was in the IDF
MR
You say you don’t like AI?
I don’t like Israeli sources
AD
I KNOW that what I am saying is true.
MR
LOL
AD
I KNOW that they are being accurate.
I have seen it and heard it.
I hid from Hamas
*Hamas’s missiles
I also got hit once by a Hamas missile
MR
I’m just giving you shit for rejecting right away an article from a respected international organization cause you don’t like the organization
MR
Yes ok
My point is that destroying half of Gaza is not defensive
AD
No, I don’t like it because it calls “walking on the street’ a war crime.
Yes it is, if they shoot from there nonstop.
MR
I disagree
AD
You DO know that at ~midnight three days ago they shot two rockets at Israel, but we destroyed them in midair?
And that alarms sounded and we ran to the shelters?
MR
Should you just kill every Gazan then?
Is that the solution?
Would that still be defensive?
AD
We don’t kill EVERY Gazan. Just the ones that have rockets near them.
If you are hiding rockets, you WILL be targeted.
MR
But you want to
AD
No we don’t
MR
cause Gazans are evil sh*theads that deserve it
AD
We want to live in peace
No one said that.
MR
THAT’S what I feel is bullsh*t
I think Israel doesn’t want peace
AD
Why are we keeping them well and alive if we think they are all evil?
MR
The actions it takes suggest it doesn’t
Cause they’re your responsibility
AD
ONLY if you ignore the fact that we offered them (the PA) TONS and they refused it.
MR
The don’t have a real country
AD
No, we let Gaza go.
MR
They need you
AD
That was SUPPOSED to become a middle eastern Singapore.
MR
Yes, you let Gaza go
And now the only way they get food is if you give it to them
AD
But Hamas won it, killed Fatah (PA) in it, and turned it into a missile fortress.
Check it, 2005-2006, Hamas vs Fatah
Fatah is PA
MR
your rhetoric suggests that Israel is completely blameless
AD
IT IS!!!
MR
It’s all Hamas’ fault
AD
In Gaza, IT IS!!!!!
MR
No, it isn’t
AD
YES IT IS!!!
MR
Agree to disagree
AD
No.
MR
Dude
You will not convince me that Israel is the good guys here
You just won’t
L
Ok so there WAS open borders and no blockade in 2005 when Gaza was handed over to the Palestinians
The blockade came 2 years later in response to terrorist attacks
Israel didn’t want a blockade
AD
You are LITERALLY ignoring the facts (Hamas vs Fatah, killed all Fatah, disconnected from the PA, formed a missile fortress, INSTEAD of the PA’s plans to turn it into a Singapore)
They had no choice if they didn’t want to be destroyed
Hamas sent suicide bombers to kill Israel daily
This *IS* Hamas’s fault. I am not saying this entire CONFLICT. I am only pointing at Gaza.
ALSO!
They had no choice but to have a blockade for weapons and have strict border control
MR
What about the innocent people in Gaza?
AD
Hamas IS SMART. They have RICH neighborhoods (look at my link: http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/28/gazas-millionaires-and-billionaires-how-hamass-leaders-got-rich-quick/ ). These are NOT touched because they are not used to store or fire rockets or anything else
Gaza’s Millionaires and Billionaires — How Hamas’s Leaders Got Rich Quick
They have NOT been touched in a war because of this.
MR
oh I don’t like that source
If you two will just admit that Israel shares the blame
I’ll be happy
AD
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3308/gaza-millionaires
How Many Millionaires Live in the “Impoverished” Gaza Strip?
MR
I’d quote the AI brief but LOL
AD
Israel DOES NOT share the blame on Gaza.
That is PURELY Hamas’s fault.
MR
Ok that’s what you believe
AD
We gave it to them EXTREMELY WILLINGLY.
Back then, WE HAD ONE SUICIDE BOMBING A DAY WITH AT LEAST 1 DEAD AND 30 INJURED.
MR
stop all caps
AD
ALL civilians
Never.
MR
then I’m gonna leave this conversation
AD
I want you realize that Gaza was given as a surrendering gift.
MR
I remember when you pulled out
AD
Do you remember the suicide bombings?
The fact that riding a bus became scary as hell?
MR
Riding a bus is still scary
AD
Not nearly
MR
Cause the wars never stop
In Jerusalem?
AD
Even there
MR
Israel will never have peace
Because having peace means talking with Hamas
AD
No, again, you have no idea what is the charter that Hamas’s members swear to.
MR
And I know, Hamas hates Israel it’s all their fault
AD
They want ALL of Israel with NO Jews in it.
MR
ok
AD
This is their literal charter.
MR
I don’t care what Hamas want
wants
Because
Charters don’t mean shit
AD
But you just showed how you did O_O
MR
it’s all rhetoric
AD
You cannot change your mind completely from one end to another O_O
MR
I believe talking with terrorists is necessary if that would lead to peace
AD
Gaza was given as a gift, with some Israeli tech still inside it, and the PA had to develop it and see how it turns out. Hamas won, the PA lost, Hamas KILLED all the PA in Gaza, and they are still at conflict, and turned it into a missile fortress instead of a Singapore.
But it will not lead to peace. We DID talk to them. We DID give them a major block of land as their own.
MR
So what’s your solution?
AD
And it did NOT lead to peace, only to a missile launching plant.
MR
What’s your solution?
AD
Forget my solution, that isn’t important. What is important is that you have INCREDIBLY wrong ideas.
Gaza was 0% Israel’s fault, just like Mexico is 0% the USA’s fault.
[The two then launched into a tangential tirade with AD saying it’s evil incarnate and MR saying it’s the voice of reason. MR storms out of the conversation and I start a new one just the two of us:]
MR
My issue
Is things like the hospital bombings.
You can’t bomb a hospital and say it’s fine cause we warned them first
That goes beyond defense
Gaza is a clusterf*ck and Hamas is definitely bad
But Israel is not blameless. That’s been my only point the whole time And there has to be a solution that doesn’t involve turning Gaza into a smoldering pile of rubble
I don’t claim to know what that is
L
There sadly isn’t at the moment They literally devote their entire existence to killing us
MR
Yeah I guess I’m Jewish but only in name like it’s not important to me that Israel remains a Jewish state
And by that I mean I’d support the full annexation of the West Bank
L
Unfortunately when they come for the Jews they will still come for you
MR
if that meant the Palestinians had real rights
So you think there’s gonna be a worldwide witch hunt for Jews? I don’t
This is why I think all religion is poisonous
Cause it leads to stupid shit like this
Like, why does Hamas want to kill all the Jews? Why?
L
I know why
Ok so the Jews have made eight 2 state offers
Several included giving them Jerusalem
To understand the conflict you have to understand the precedent Pan Arabism (AKA a form of colonialism) was huge in the Arab world in the 19th century, springing up with other nationalist movements
They saw Israel/British Mandate Palestine as part of that plan
The UN partition plan happened after the Arabs refused to allow Israel to exist
The Arabs rejected the partition plan (a form of compromise). FYI that partition plan included Jerusalem
The UN then shrugged and put it up to a vote and Israel came to be Note that the UN was then mostly western countries because the non-Western countries were still colonized
The Arabs were furious so they waged an existential war against Israel
Six Arab armies Egypt Iraq Syria Lebanon Jordan Saudi Arabia
MR
I know the basic history
L
The Arabs lost
Nobody expected this because the US wasn’t helping
This was HUMILIATING for them
Remember, their culture is tribal
They don’t accept losing
Every time they hear of Israel it’s humiliating
Israel doing better than them is humiliating
But anyway, they have remained stubborn ever since because Nasser and the other early PLO leaders were very pan Arabist and indoctrinated the youth with that mentality
That the ends justify the means
So they literally see giving up as shameful and losing honour and they would literally rather die than do that So that’s why they continue
The ideology is secular but fueled by religion
The religion gives it the zeal Israel is only defending itself, it doesn’t want to start any wars and is following the rules of basic warfare. It’s just that no western army had to deal with an enemy like that
MR
And I think, given the right circumstances or incentives, they will lay down their arms
L
I actually have a good plan for this
MR
I think the wars in Gaza go beyond defense
L
The Sinai peninsula is very sparsely populated
And was once Israel’s anyway
Israel should strike a deal with Egypt – either for Israel to build infrastructure, modern water and sewage treatment, etc.
In exchange for Sinai to give to the Palestinians
MR
I disagree on that too The Sinai was Israel’s part
[He doesn’t think the 1967 territory conquering was just or abided by international law]
L: The Palestinians will have a state
Right of return to that area
The will have the choice
Stay in Israel and become Israeli with full rights
Or leave and join a state ruled by your own people
MR
What about Jerusalem?
L
They don’t actually care about Jerusalem, it’s a red herring
Many of the two state plans gave them Jerusalem and they refused
They want the entire land to be Arab. Full stop.
They refuse to compromise
It’s ideological
They see everyone else as inherently dhimmis
MR
UGH
L
I know it’s frustrating
MR
I feel like there’s an easy solution to all of this
L
They don’t care about Al Aqsa
It was in ruin before the 1960’s
MR
Israel, put your d*cks away. Palestinians, put your d*cks away
Problem solved
L
lol
When Nasser injected religious zeal into it
And it suddenly became holy It was in disrepair until then I saw pics
Muslims didn’t care about it until Israel wanted it then they use it as something they have against us
Mecca and Medina are their holy cities
The entire Palestinian story from what I know seems fabricated
Pan Arabism is at the core
And it should be known for what it is: colonialism
MR
Maybe the real solution is to relocate the entire nation of Israel
To Nunavut
L
If the Jews put away their weapons there will be no Israel. Israel tried diplomacy and they refuse to budge and keep starting wars
Haha it’s too late for Nunavut
MR
Israel should defend itself
Yes but some of its tactics are disgusting just like Hamas
L
I just don’t see what else they can do strategically
MR
The truth is this
Neither do I
Even IF Israel’s actions are disgusting
Which is why this conflict is so fucking complicated
L
Hamas started it so it IS 100% their fault
Israel warned them of what will happen They still did it
MR
Hamas started it isn’t really an excuse
L
Even if it isn’t but it’s still their fault
They started every single war since Israel’s inception
They could have just stopped starting shit and there would be peace
MR
Yeah I pretty much agree with you
L
Here’s the thing sadly
The language in the Arab world IS aggression. Doesn’t make it right
But it’s how you gain respect with tribalist groups
And scare them from attacking you
It’s messed up and doesn’t justify it
But that’s the logic here. We have no other option.
MR
I think that’s what I’ve been trying to say
To show them who is boss Israel can bomb hospitals in Gaza and say its defensive
That doesn’t make it ok
Doesn’t make it right
L
It is what has to be done to save Israel. When push comes to shove we have to value our own lives when it’s either or.
MR
And if that’s a sacrifice that Israel’s willing to make, that’s ok
But you can’t be surprised when the rest of the world finds it disgusting
L
any other country would make the same sacrifice if they were in that situation
it’s how defensive warfare works
they think it’s disgusting because they’ve never had to deal with it
MR
And I’m sure the world community would condemn them too
Exactly.
L
Except USA did that in Iraq
and Afghanistan
worse even.
MR
Oh 100%
L
People do condemn them but nowhere near how they condemn Israel
MR
I think Dick Cheney should be sent to the Hague
GWB too
L
LOL
I don’t know what kind of intel they had though
we can’t and won’t know.
MR
They faked the intel
There was none
Saddam wasn’t a good guy
But look what happened when we took him out
Iraq is probably worse off
L
They created a power vacuum
it was so poorly planned
MR
Yes
And the US government was shamed for that
L
but the world isn’t trying to boycott the USA
if Iraq kept attacking USA you’d better believe they’d respond like Israel
as a deterrent
MR
Well that’s cause we can’t be boycotted
L
well neither can Israel technically.
Everyone would have to turn off their computers
MR
I don’t hate Israel
But should Israel be held accountable for its actions? Yes, even if they’re defensive in nature
If you accidentally run over and kill a person in your car
You still get charged with manslaughter even if you didn’t mean to
Not a perfect analogy, but it kinda works
L
Well if you shoot someone who is trying to kill you
That’s self defense
You don’t get punished
This is a better comparison
MR
What if that person is a child?
L
If the child has a gun or their parents are using them as a shield technically that’s also self defense
MR
It is, but it’s also disgusting
L
Yes
But it’s disgusting of the parent
The person defending themselves has zero choice
MR
Doesn’t make it any less disgusting. And that’s my point
Israel may have no good choices
But those bad choices are still bad
So like in Gaza
When Israel levels whole blocks
It might be defensive cause Hamas stores rockets in houses and hospitals
But it’s still horrible when Israel destroys them
And they’re ok with that. The rest of the world isn’t.
L
You’re saying Israel has no other choice. Why should they be faulted for that? Why does Israel get more flack than, say, Syria’s regime for murdering their own people. I don’t see anyone trying to boycott Syria. Or Saudi Arabia. How do they deal with Saudi’s human rights violations? They make them head of the human rights council! It was Hamas and the PA who put Israel in a corner and they should take the blame for it. Period. It’s why if someone gives you no choice but to shoot them (is pointing a gun to you and shooting toward you and you have no choice but to neutralize them by shooting back to save your life), they take 100% of the blame in court. And that’s how the world should see Israel. Because Israel is obviously held up to a double-standard at the UN because of widespread anti-western and antisemitic sentiment.
MR
They should be held accountable for their actions just like every other country. You want to boycott every country that violates human rights? That’s a long list.
Why should Israel be exempt from accountability? Any country that bombs hospitals and kills children should be called out on it
Just today it seems that a US airstrike in Afghanistan killed 16 people including children. That’s also horrible and we should be condemned for that
Israel should not get special treatment
I’m by no means saying the PA and Hamas are the good guys here. It’s just the idea that Israel should never be questioned in these matters is insane
L
The problem is, the world likes to obscure what is provoking Israel endlessly.
The world is harsher on all other countries.
I’m not saying Israel shouldn’t be accountable, I’m saying its circumstances should be taken into account.
Does it make any sense that of all the human rights abusers in the world, ISRAEL is the one that is the ONLY one singled out, with 62 resolutions against compared to a maximum of ONE against the second highest country.
If someone is shooting at my house and I finally shoot back, should I be held accountable for the sniper’s death? No.
I am Israel.
MR
Yeah it’s excessive
But lucky for you and for Israel
the UN doesn’t have much power to actually enforce anything
No country has the right to kill children. No one has the right to indiscriminately bomb entire city blocks. No one
I’m including America here
We’ve done a lot of really horrible sh*t.
L
Yes, and it’s unfortunate, but life is unfortunate. Sometimes there really isn’t anything we can do about the injustice in the world.
Sometimes you are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
It’s how the world is.
We need to at least acknowledge Israel has its hands tied. Take that into account when compared to other countries that that do not, or that provoke.
If the Palestinians drop their weapons, there will be peace. If Israel drops their weapons, there will be no Israel. Take that into consideration when thinking about who to blame.
MR
You’re right. But I still don’t think what happened in Gaza is ok
L
Nobody here does. Nothing will ever make it okay. The most horrible part is that Israel didn’t want to kill any innocents, they literally had no choice.
MR
I know. It’s a real tragedy.
Maybe the alternative is to evacuate a safety zone within a few miles of the border
Prohibit anyone from living there
That way when the rockets fall they kill no one
L
Again, Hamas purposely puts rockets in densely populated areas
the reason for that is, Israel is instructed NOT to fire a missile if there are civilians
and Hamas is taking advantage.
that’s the most horrible part of this war.
They are doing this to smear Israel and demonize them to the world.
And it’s working.
MR:
Yeah. I don’t know the answers
