Response to Charley
Aussie Dave | Sep 24, 2005 | 19 comments
On the Israelisms podcast site, there has been an interesting discussion regarding the synagogues that we left in Gaza, and which were subsequently set upon by neo Pals. While Charley thinks it was a wrong, politically motivated move for us to leave them (with an obvious result), I have contended that it goes against Jewish law. You can follow the discussion here.
On the latest podcast, Charley mentioned the discussion, including my comment that “I don’t believe that humans are wiser than G-d.” (in response to Eric’s comment that “once in a while common sense needs to trump halacha [Jewish law].”) Charley responded that halacha is from the Rabbis, and not from G-d.
This is one of the fundamental differences between Orthodox Judaism and other strands. Torah Jews believe in both the written Torah (old Testament for my non-Jewish readers) and an oral one also transmitted to Moses on Mount Sinai. You need both for the full picture.
Regarding Rabbinical law, Torah Jews believe that G-d gave the sages the authority to enact laws. It is derived from verses 10-11 in Parashat Shoftim, in the book of Deuteronomy:
“You shall do according to the word that they will tell you..and you shall be careful to do according to everything that they will teach you. According to the teaching that they will teach you and according to the judgment that they will say to you, shall you do; you shall not deviate from the word that they will tell you, right or left”
Thus when I said that “I don’t believe that humans are wiser than G-d,” I meant that I don’t believe that we are wiser than G-d, who gave the Sages the right to enact their own laws, using various tools and the oral tradition. G-d intended that we follow the words of the wise Sages.
Charley also challenged me to cite the verse that shows it is forbidden for a Jew to destroy a building that was once a synagogue. I will oblige him.
From my understanding, it is forbidden to destroy the Temple.
“You must tear down their altars, break their stone pillars, burn their sacred groves, and cut down the statues of their gods… But you must never do anything like this to [the sacred objects of] God your Lord” (Deuteronomy, chapter 12 verses 3-4)
A synagogue is like a temple of today, since it has assumed the role of providing the place in which we worship G-d. It is thus forbidden to demolish a synagogue unless to rebuild or improve it.
(Mordechai on Talmud, Megillah, section 826; Shulchan Aruch and Ramah, Orach Chaim 152; Tzemach Tzeddek Responsa, Orach Chaim, Responsa 20; Torat Chessed Responsa, Orach Chaim, Responsa 4.) The synagogue retains its holy status, even after it is not used as a synagogue anymore.
Whether or not you believe in this, or the actual oral tradition and Rabbinical Law, one should respect the fact that in deciding whether or not a Jew can destroy orthodox Jewish synagogues, Jewish law should be taken into account. To ignore it would be extremely insensitive.
About the Author
An Australian immigrant to Israel, Aussie Dave has been blogging since early 2003.Filed Under: General
Thanks, Dave. You reenforced everything I said in the podcast,Israelisms Podcast #30. By definition, there were no “sacred objects of God” in those buildings. I’m glad you could clear that up.
And who decides who a sage is? Who votes for them? Different sects of Orthodoxy follow different sages. Are some sages wrong? Are some sages more right? You’re dealing with people. And when you’re dealing with people you’re dealing with faults and foibles. And let’s be careful not to give people God-like powers. Let’s not forget Shabtai Tzvi.
Charley
Charley, please try to keep up. The synagogue, as a substitute for the Holy Temple in which we offer service instead of sacrifice, is itself an object holy to God. It’s not as if this prohibition against destroying synagogues was invented last month. It’s been around for a while.
And the sages interpret. Interpretation is a power given to humanity, not reserved to God. Yes, there can be different interpretations. But consensus trumps anarchy.
Charley… what part of, “The synagogue retains its holy status, even after it is not used as a synagogue anymore.” didn’t you understand????
You are obviously a true Zionist… but why are you so anti-religious??!
…and let’s not forget what kind of people we’re dealing with:
Netzarim Synagogue Being Converted to Hamas Museum
10:00 Sep 25, ’05 / 21 Elul 5765
Don’t get your shorts in a bunch Rix. I wouldn’t get that the building meaning the four walls is “a sacred object of God” by just reading that quote. But lets say that true sages decided it was so. Than how come the initial deal was okayed to destroy the synagogues and only after the disengagement happened did the push to save them occur?
I totally don’t get the statement you made that when someone questions something in Judaism they are anti religious. Charley’s argument for removing the synagogues was to avoid the pain it caused people who watched the barbaric acts. He wanted to take the power away from Hamas etc.
A bit of good manners trumps all!
Again the question remains -why did the rabbi’s first okay the demolition of the buildings if they are sacred in any way? And if they are sacred then how could the rabbi’s knowingly let them fall into the hands of people who would do these barbaric things?
While on the podcast my arguments would have been more to your liking I think Charley was right in that we let Hamas etc. have the power to cause pain to our people when there could have been another way like in Sa Nur where they buried the synagogue.
I LOVE YOU GUYS!! Please come over to Israelisms and become listeners. I think it would be fun to have you as part of the group. Especially Lynn. “Please try to keep up”. That’s precious!!
Carol,
??!! Hee-hee! That’s funny!
Dave’s response, including the quote you refer to, come from sources in Jewish text whether you or Charley believe in them or not….
Anyhow… My feelings that Charley is a bit anti-religious stems from the multiple comments I’ve heard him make about Orthodox Judiasm and “Settlers”… (not to mention and the show where he went to a hotel in East Jerusalem and later spoke about the treif food he enjoyed there.)
I do not have a problem with different people having different opinions and beliefs however… I found some of Charley’s comments about settlers and religion… and his attack on Israellycool offensive and stemming from ignorance.
Charley,
I’m sure the exposure you’re getting here… at Israellycool, will earn you a few new listeners…
Keep the dialogues going… it’s interesting!
While it’s always easier to be snotty than to answer I still want to hear your answer. Why did the rabbi’s first okay the demolition of the synagogues? And since they are sacred- why would rabbis allow them to be put into the hands of people who would desecrate them?
Criticizing Orthodox Judaism doesn’t make you anti religious. Comments against settlers don’t make you anti religious either. They make you anti settler. Eating treif is a personal choice that does not make you anti religious nor does it somehow reflect on the kind of person you are.
Charley never Israellycool or Dave whom he says is a really nice guy on the show so who is being ignorant and misquoting is what I find offensive.
At the very least it’s therapeutic!
Wow, I’m away all day and look what happens! Anarchy!!
I was not aware of any Rabbi okaying the destruction of synagogues at the hands of the IDF. I know that they ended up agreeing that some of the temporary ones could be taken down. The only justification for this could be if the synagogues were immediately sold to a non-Jew, but I somehow don’t see the neo Pals buying them.
Regarding sages, we have to realize that these men were alot smarter and wiser than we are. And yes, they were human. But G-d knew that when he gave them the authority to interpret scripture and enact laws.
I am satisfied with the answers that Dave posted in his original response to Charley.
I do not believe that there is a debate here as I am an observant Jew and I accept what the sages/rabbis have said. In fact, if it had been up to our rabbis, none of the settlers (that Charley so dislikes) would be homeless right now, synagogues would not have been burned and turned into Hamas shrines, and the entire Negev would not be in firing rage of neo-pal missile attacks….
Shorts bunched up? Snotty? Carol, this is not the type of dialogue that I would call “therapeutic”…. however I do agree that having the oportunity to discuss and debate opposing sides of the issues can only bring us Jews closer…
OK, so here I am, Eric of the infamous “common sense needs to trump halacha” comment.
I won’t reopen that — but I have one question. Dave, and David, do you really think that G-d gave the wisdom to write and interpret laws to just a generation or two or three of “wise sages”??
Why are there no longer “wise sages” able to interpret the law?? Do you really think that G-d would intend that just a limited few humans would be allowed to interpret the law; and that after they died, the law would be inflexible for the remaining millennia of human existence??
The “sages” were just human beings, like us. Now, I certainly don’t claim to be a wise, learned sage. But I’m open to the possibility that there are 21st Century humans capable of providing insight and interpretation into Jewish law.
I don’t believe that the only humans capable of interpreting Jewish laws to G-d’s satisfaction died out thousands of years ago. I simply don’t believe that G-d would be so shortsighted.
As a Selichot program last night, our shul held a screening of the documentary “Trembling Before G-d.” If you’re not familiar with this film, it looks at the struggles faced by Orthodox Jews who are also homosexual.
This film underscored the fact that for many Orthodox Jews, the literal words of the Torah take precedence over treating people decently. I don’t believe that’s what G-d intended; I don’t believe G-d wants gay and lesbian Jews to be shunned by their families, driven from their synagogues, told that they should be stoned to death.
And please don’t quote Leviticus to me. I know that it calls male homosexuality “to’evah,” an “abomination.” Of course, in Deuteronomy 14:4, eating trayf foods is also called to’evah. Yet I don’t see many shuls, even Orthodox ones, shunning people for having a cheeseburger now and then. (And, of course, the Torah says NOTHING at all about female homosexuality. Not one single word.)
Phew. Way off topic here. But all of this literalism above common sense and treating people with decency explains why I’m not Orthodox, I suppose. I wasn’t fundamentalist in my Christian days, either.
Eric
Hi Eric,
Who said anything about 2 or 3 wise sages? And yes, there are Rabbis who have enough knowledge and insight to interpret the law. But if you mean by “interpret” to just go ahead and change it, then this is not correct. However, very learned modern day Rabbis are able to interpret the law as it applies to modern circumstances. (This is different, though, to CHANGING the law at a whim).
Regarding homosexuality, just b/c some Orthodox Jews behave badly towards gay people, does not mean that this is the halachic position. From my understanding, while homosexual acts are forbidden, we still have to treat our fellow humans as equals. You can look down on someone’s sin, without looking down on the sinner (Christians have a similar saying I think). In fact, I heard that in Kabbalistic thought, there is a recognition that some people can have souls of the opposite sex (if I am not mistaken).
It sounds to me that you are generalizing about authentic Judaism on the basis of the acts or attitudes of some, coupled with some ignorance of it. If you want to know more, I can recommend some good sites for you, with people far more eloquent and articulate than I am on the subject.
I’ll try and explain myself a bit better.
First to attitude- The whole “Charley what part of……don’t you understand is condescending. The phrase “don’t get your shorts in a bunch” is one I learned in the midwest. It means relax. So while you may not have intended it your replies when read by me came off as snotty. Especially when you wrongly accused him of saying negative stuff about Dave or Israellycool among other things.
Getting past that I honestly want to know how if the buildings are sacred- and I am going with what you have said- that they are sacred- How could we knowingly leave them in the hands of someone who we know will desecrate them?
So far the firing range has not changed. It probably will but that will be due to better technology not how close they can get. But that’s a whole other discussion.
In any case I apologize for any offense on my part.
Carol
David–
Thanks for your response. I certainly don’t paint all Orthodox Jews with the same brush. While Orthodoxy is not for me (and never will be), I recognize that the vast majority of Orthodox Jews are genuine in their love for Torah, their love for G-d, and their love for their fellow humans. I certainly respect that.
Let’s try not to use the term “authentic Judaism,” however. That’s incredibly insulting to those of us who are non-Orthodox Jews, as it implies that our Judaism is not authentic.
Eric
Sorry if you were offended, but I meant “authentic” in the sense of “original”. There is no denying that in the beginning, almost all Jews were “orthodox” in the sense of keeping the written and oral Torah.
I’m glad u don’t paint all of us with the same brush, and I certainly don’t paint my non-orthodox brethren with the same brush either. Heck, I am not much of a painter!
Carol, I agree… how could we knowingly present our enemy with Gush Katif??!! This is not a question for the rabbis who fought until the end to hang onto our precious land, homes, businesses, and synagogues! The “believers” were the last to BELIEVE that Jews would be dragged from their homes – their communities handed over to terrorists!
While we’re debating over the destruction of a few synagogues our enemies are putting crosshairs on Jerusalem and Tel Aviv…
While Sharon fights for political survival does anyone believe that any progress will be made for the good of our country??!! The only true change that came from the Disengagement is the fact that our enemy has become stronger once again and we are the only ones to blame. We handed them a great victory and they won’t stop until each and every one of us has been dragged from our homes and blown to bits and blood.
How many times will history repeat itself before we Jews get a grip on reality??!!