Omri seems a little frazzled in his response to my previous post.
We are getting a touch roughed up in the Israellycool comment section. This is in response to our very reasonable point about how Aussie Dave may have been trying a little too hard to paint Shimon Peres as more of an effete Europhile than an Israeli patriot. Dave says he likes us (although to be frank, we think we sounded a touch more sincere in our admiration for him)
Actually, I do like Omri…at least in the sense of respecting his blog posts and level of analysis. If he thinks I am being insincere, then he should have expected that I would have found him to sound insincere (since I adopted his exact tone of voice post). Granted, I repeated his turn of phrase for comedic effect, and I would have hoped Omri would have realized this since he is a regular reader of my blog and should know what to expect. If not, now he knows.
but we’re not sure that he’s being entirely forthcoming about what he said when he wrote “‘Do I not have international recognition?’ – Vice Premier Shimon Peres, showing what truly motivates him.” Because it sounded to us like he was taking the very typical cheap shot at Peres for being more motivated by a desire for international recognition than about Israeli security. Who knows, maybe we read too much into it.
No, I was being extremely forthcoming. I interpreted his statement as just another manifestation of Peres’ self-aggrandisement, and acknowledged as much. I honestly believe that he is primarily motivated by matters of ego. That is not to say that he is not a nuanced human being, with some concern for Israel, and level of altruism. I just happen to believe – based on what I have read about Peres and seen with my own eyes – that his primary motivation is to go down in the history books as someone (and to possibly bag a Hollywood starlet or two).
The better question is, if we’re right that it was the press that deserved to be mocked for their rabid inability to understand reality, rather than Peres for anything – then why take the cheap shot at Peres? If it’s true (as we assert) that what was objectively at stake was media hand-wringing about how no Israeli can go to Europe – and Peres slapped them down because he can quite easily go to Europe – then why choose to criticize Peres rather than the press?
Because I don’t think you are right, Omri. Given my view of Peres – again, based on what I know through reading about him and watching him in action – I interpreted his statement as an exercise in self-aggrandisement. A hissy-fit of sorts. This may be supported by the report from which I extracted the Peres quote:
Olmert’s associates said the statement did not necessarily mean that he would ask Peres to run as Kadima’s presidential candidate and Peres’s aides would not say whether he wanted the post. But Peres’s angry reaction to Olmert’s quote was a sign that Peres was waiting for the prime minister to ask him to run.
Sources close to Peres said he was less angered by what Olmert said and more by the way it was interpreted by the press to indicate that the prime minister considered all politicians unqualified to be president. He also was upset by a headline in Ma’ariv that Olmert intended to ask Nobel Prize winner and author Eli Wiesel to be Kadima’s candidate.
I therefore posit that my interpretation of Peres’ reaction is a valid one. No less valid than Omri’s (who is relying on the middle section highlighted in blue).
We think it’s because there’s a lot of people who don’t like Peres on the right. And more so, we think that a lot of them are far less careful than Dave about the pretexts they give for not liking Peres. Not to spoil the ending, but we think it has a lot to do with what the second commenter said – that Peres is not on Israel’s side, and the proof of that was that he compromised Israel’s security.
Omri is correct that many people do not like Peres for this reason alone, but couldn’t be more wrong in accusing me of having a pretext. My conclusions about Peres’ motivations are not based on what I consider to be his misguided decisions. I do not doubt that Peres has Israel’s interests at heart, or that he believes his way is the correct way. I just happen to believe that he thirsts for international recognition, and acknowledgement of his achievements. And this thirst supersedes all else.
And so now we have to go through this again. Check this out: Shimon Peres is a patriot. One of the great Israeli patriots. It’d be much easier for everybody if he wasn’t. It would be great if there weren’t really fundamental disagreements between really passionate and really smart people about how to deal with the genocidal threats that Israel is facing. Unfortunately, that’s not the case. There are opinions by great Israeli leaders from all over the map – are they all too blind by their love for all things European to care about Israel? For instance, other patriots who disagree with what is now the Israeli right: Abba Eban, Yitzak Rabin, and Arik Sharon. Again, anyone is free to say that any those people are either (a) traitors, (b) idiots, or (c) both. But if that’s going to be the argument let’s be explicit about it shall we? Shimon Peres founded the Israeli air force – traitor and idiot. Abba Eban bought Israel the last two days of the Six Day War – traitor and idiot. Yitzak Rabin announced the unification of Israel’s eternal capital from Mt. Scopus – traitor and idiot. Arik Sharon was Arik Melech Israel – traitor and idiot. People really want to defend that?
Omri, you have set up a strawman. Peres can be a patriot and an egomaniac. They are not mutually exclusive. Again, he is not a one-dimensional comic book character. But in my humble opinion, he has an ego the size of Mars.
And as far as specifics about Peres go, frankly this argument is getting a little old. During the first few years of Intifada II there was no significant international pressure from Europe brought to bear on the Sharon government. Now one of three things was going on: (a) the Europeans liked Sharon, (b) the Europeans agreed with Sharon, or (c) Shimon Peres was flying from capital to capital, using his credibility to assure European leaders that the Palestinian plight was being taken into account. Again, any Peres-basher is free to defend any of those options as the historically true one, but let’s be explicit about the version of the world that’s being defended.
And again – it’d be really convenient if everyone on the anti-Oslo side was good and wholesome and everyone on the pro-Oslo side was too enamored by European cocktail parties to think of Israel’s security. But the world is not here for anyone’s convenience, nor does it deign to untangle itself so that people don’t have to deal with really tough questions. Does Shimon Peres love Israel more than he loves Europe? Next week: Natan Sharansky – Zionist or closet Soviet hack? Come on. Of course Shimon Peres loves Israel more than he loves Europe. Of course he does. Anyone who says or implies otherwise has defamed one of the greatest Israeli leaders of all time. And in the process, they have committed themselves to a rather narrow version of Israeli patriotism – one which has the unfortunate side-effect of excluding most of the people that are regarded by history as Israeli patriots. Opps.
What we are not saying: we are not saying that Aussie Dave thinks the Peres (or Eban or Rabin or Sharon) is a traitor.
*Phew* Glad you cleared that up.
What we are saying: we are saying that the habit of taking anti-Peres potshots among careful rightists participated in a much less sophisticated – and frankly indefensible – political community. That political community goes all the way from people like Aussie Dave on one side through the people who say that Peres isn’t on Israel’s side because he compromised Israel’s security all the way to the people who use phrases like “the traitors of Oslo”.
Omri, you are assuming so much, and we all know what happens when you assume. I am not taking anti-Peres potshots due to membership in some political community. I have poked fun at other egotists who share many of my beliefs (see my posts on Shmuely Boteach if you don’t believe me). Anyone is fair game on Israellycool. I am an equal opportunity offender.
By the way, my view of Peres’ egotism is shared by a not insignificant amount of
people. For instance, take this quote from an article on Peres’ 80th
birthday party:
But Israeli critics saw an extravaganza whose security costs and general
disruption suggested an oversized ego and somewhat poor form at a time when
fighting continues and the ranks of poor Israelis and Palestinians are swelling.
Unless Omri is suggesting that all of these critics are members of a much less sophisticated and indefensible political community…
Do the people on the careful side of the spectrum condone what the lunatics on the other side of the spectrum are saying? Usually not. Are they providing support and succor to those lunatics by needlessly (and, let’s be honest, a little smugly and snarkily) taking potshots at a great Israeli hero? Undeniably.
And let’s be honest, Omri. Your posts are no less smug nor snarky than mine. And we love you for it.*
* That was sincere
