Paris Blame Islam: Kristof vs Choudary

The question arises because fanatical Muslims so often seem to murder in the name of God, from the 2004 Madrid train bombing that killed 191 people to the murder of hostages at a cafe in Sydney, Australia, last month. I wrote last year of a growing strain of intolerance in the Islamic world after a brave Pakistani lawyer friend of mine, Rashid Rehman, was murdered for defending a university professor falsely accused of insulting the Prophet Muhammad.

Why does Kristof start in 2004?

One of the biggest events of world terror was in the United States on September 11, 2001. Both the New York City financial center and the Washington, DC military center were targeted and hit. Thousands of people were murdered by Muslim terrorists. The World Trade Center Towers had been bombed before, but surely 9/11 should have been a wake up call for the US and the world.

Let’s also acknowledge that the most courageous, peace-loving people in the Middle East who are standing up to Muslim fanatics are themselves often devout Muslims.

It is really gratifying to hear from Kristof that so many devout Muslims are standing up with expressions of peace, since we have not been hearing them so loud and clear. Guess they are drowned out by lone voices of leaders like Anjem Choudary.

Capture  Choudary Tweet against Britain for Sharia Law on Hannity

Choudary sets the record straight, he has gone beyond his usual tweeting and spells it out clearly in USAToday:

Contrary to popular misconception, Islam does not mean peace but rather means submission to the commands of Allah alone. Therefore, Muslims do not believe in the concept of freedom of expression, as their speech and actions are determined by divine revelation and not based on people’s desires.

Muslims consider the honor of the Prophet Muhammad to be dearer to them than that of their parents or even themselves. To defend it is considered to be an obligation upon them. The strict punishment if found guilty of this crime under sharia (Islamic law) is capital punishment implementable by an Islamic State. This is because the Messenger Muhammad said, “Whoever insults a Prophet kill him.”

So who should we listen to and believe, Journalist Kristof or Imam Choudary?

53 thoughts on “Paris Blame Islam: Kristof vs Choudary”

  1. In Judaism also you kill those who insult a prophet. In the case of the prophet Elisha, God sent a bear who cut 42 children who shouted to him, “Go up, bald”. 2 Kings 2: 23-24

    1. The children were killed not for jeering at the prophet but for insulting G-d.

      Again, the law of blasphemy is directed at actions that disrespect G-d and is not directed at human beings.

      On this the Jewish teaching has always been clear.

      1. ahad_ha_amoratsim

        And they weren’t killed by a Jew, they were killed by G*d. Joe gets confused because he prays to a dead Jew instead of praying to G*d.

        1. More to the point, Jews have killed to defend G-d’s honor. Muslims on the other hand kill to prevent a man from being mocked.

          Is Mohammed greater than Allah? Islam certainly seems to think so.

      2. ahad_ha_amoratsim

        Joe believes the parts of scripture that says Jews did things he does not approve of, but not the part that says they acted at G*d’s command.

    2. We’re not speaking theoretical laws here, but practical culture. Jews haven’t been killing apostates for more than 2000 years now, while Muslims do it all the time and on our streets.

          1. In France there are 7,000,000 Muslims. This is the worst attack (12 dead) in last 40 years. Clearly the vast majority of Muslims the issue avenge the honor of their prophet is not taken seriously …

              1. ahad_ha_amoratsim

                Good question. I don’t know.Because he likes moral equivalence? Because he’s sure that everyone should and will join his religion? Because he would rather smear Judaism than deal with reality? I’m just guessing, and your question is better than any of my guesses.

              2. And the Jews call themselves Western although they were despised and persecuted 2000 years. They are difficult to explain contradictions …

        1. How about the presence in Israel of the the hundreds of thousands of Jews ethnically cleansed from Arab countries?

        2. ahad_ha_amoratsim

          Now that I think about it we only have to go back to your book. Or if we want to use non-fiction, then we can go back to Ezra and Nehemia. And if we want to stay post-Roman Exile, we can go back to the continuous Jewish presence in the land even after the Roman expulsion.

      1. ahad_ha_amoratsim

        Not to mention that Elisha did not kill anybody. Joe’s example is liking holding Noach responsible for the flood.

        1. Exactly.

          Elisha never sent Jewish terrorists after his critics to silence them so its an invalid comparison.

          Mohammed on the other hand was a terrorist.

          1. ahad_ha_amoratsim

            What is it about the small subsection of Christian visitors to Jewish web sites (thankfully, a small percentage of the Christian visitors to Israellycool) who cannot restrain themselves from lecturing us about the inherent superiority of their faith over ours, and how we can learn from their faith what religion really should be? Isn’t it rude to come into someone’s home and lecture them about the ugliness of their furniture, and tell them to hire your decorator instead? I was going to expand on that metaphor, but I think I’ll stop there.

    3. ahad_ha_amoratsim

      So Christians don’t believe that happened? Or they think Jews and not G*d sent the bear? Because nothing in the verse you quoted shows that Judaism killed anybody.

      Out of Christian love, please expalin it to me, Joe. I’m confused, because all your missionaries tell me you believe in the same book we do. Are the missionaries lying, or do they and you think the author of Kings 2 was lying? Or do they simply think G*d was lying?

      Explain it to me, because I find your admittedly superior and more humane faith a bit puzzling at times, including the part where an entire continent of Christians helped the Nazis (who may or may not have been Christian, but who had all been raised in Christian homes) slaughter 1/3 of the world’s Jewish poplulation, and end the presence of a 2,000 year old Jewish civilization in Europe.

      1. I explain: Judaism was a “shadow” of Christianity, was temporary, but only something useful for your time.
          Then God’s revelation pointed to the higher, the forgiveness of sins, mercy to the weak, equality and human brotherhood (no chosen people).
        It is better life governed by eternal and immutable principles that 600 or 700 regulations that prevent you from eating pork and other animals, mixed fabrics, encroach upon the genitals, drink a liquid that will swell the stomach for adultery (proof of jealousy) …
        The law of Moses had expiration date, why Judaism and Islam, taken seriously, is incompatible with modern life

        1. The Nazis did not follow Jesus, who said “who take the sword will die by the sword” “love your enemies and pray for them.”

          The Hebrews if followed Moses (Jehovah) when he ordered the extermination of Midian, and all the Canaanites.

          Do you see why Christianity is more human? The book, that is the question

          But the Jews of today take seriously parts of his books (Promised Land) and others not. Muslims take it completely 🙁

          1. ahad_ha_amoratsim

            I’m not asking you to explain the Nazis. I’m asking how so many non-Nazi Christians lovingly assisted Nazis in murdering Jews, and lovingly murdered Jews over the centuries before there were Nazis. Please explain that to me so I can understand your modest assertion that the savage bloodthirsty Jews became more humane by absorbing Christian values.

            “The Hebrews if followed Moses (Jehovah) when he ordered the extermination of Midian, and all the Canaanites.”

            I don’t understand. Are you saying Moses and “Jehovah” are the same? I thought “Jehovah” was the name Christians think that our scripture uses for G*d. Are you saying Moses and G*d were the same? No Jew believes that. Are you saying G*d is not humane? That’s an odd thing for a Christian to say. Are you saying you believe the part of Scripture that says Moses ordered us in G*d’s name to kill out the Canaanites, but not the part that says G*d commanded him to do so?

            “Do you see why Christianity is more human?”
            Interesting typo. Yes, it is more human because you worship a human with human flaws, including lying. And because you ascribe human flaws to the Creator.
            But not more humane. I cannot reconcile that with two millennia of your religion’s treatment of Jews.

        2. ahad_ha_amoratsim

          OK, so that means you think G*d was a liar when He told us that His Laws and His covenant with us were for all time. And that you think the man you worship was a liar when he said he would not change even a yud (the smallest letter in the aleph bet, rendered in Greek as the letter iota) from the Law. I’m stll confused, though, why a religion that posits a god who lies, and worships a mortal dead demi-god who lies, is superior to the Law given by G*d.

          “but only something useful for your time.”

          So you are saying our time is past. Permit me to disagree.

          1. Yes, I think that the “Law of Christ” is superior to the law of

            The strict religious laws are made to primitive societies, like the Hebrew of those times, and serve the society does not destroy itself. Say how to dress, what to eat, etc. Fear is a major factor in such laws “should not sleep with the wife of your neighbor, or you will be stoned.”
            The law of Moses regulated the life of the Hebrews who were complicated people. Deuteronomy 9:6 “Know, therefore, that the Lord your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness, for you are a stubborn people”.
            They were dark times, human society in general was very primitive, and the weak will not survive, so laws were somewhat dark, for example, if it was crushed to death a slave until he fell down, but did not die immediately, no crime, because a slave was property of his master, one thing. Today, this is a horror. But for those times were correct, that other nations were even worse.
            Christianity appeals to the heart, not fear. And they are no longer needed a lot of regulations. People with mental and emotional lift is guided by timeless guiding principles, based on justice and love. “Treat others the same way you want them to treat you.”. The principles serve to make good decisions at all times.
            Finally, I’m talking about beliefs and not people.

            1. ahad_ha_amoratsim

              “Christianity appeals to the heart, not fear. ” I’m having trouble squaring that with Christians who tell 7 year old Jewish kids in their care “You and your parents are going to burn eternally in hell fire unless you take Jesus into your hearts.”

              But that is all beside the point. Anyone who is at all familiar with the history of Jews in Europe will be amused and disgusted in equal part by your assertion that living among Christians has made Jews more humane, of that Christianity has anything to teach us about kindness or morality.

              Also beside the point — the whole idea of Christianity making it unnecessary for Jews to observe the Torah is, as I pointed out, premised on the idea of the Torah being given by a god who is a liar and is subject to finitiness, division, combination, accident, ignorance, and other physical qualities. G*d commanded Jews to believe that He is incorporeal, infinite, and not subject to any physical attributes, and to carry out the 613 commandments that he gave us. Nothing that any human being says can supersede that command.

              Fortunately for you, He never gave that command to non-Jews, who were commanded after the flood to observe only 7.
              And just as fortunate, non-Jews, unlike Jews, are not guilty of other-worship (usually mistranslated as idol worship) for believing that G*d has delegated part of His power to other beings who thereby deserve to be worshipped. (A doctrine known as shituf, meaning partnership.) Many rabbis are of the opinion that Christianity qualifies as shituf, though others are of the opinion that it is out-and-out other-worship, forbidden to Jews and non-Jews alike. All agree, though, that a Jew who (G*d protect us) adopts Christianity is guilty of other-worship, and that a Jew must accept death rather than adopt or even pretend to adopt Christianity, whether publicly or privately.
              And many Jews, when confronted with the choice, have chosen death rather than betray G*d by becoming Christian. The fact that Christians confronted them with that choice makes it impossible for any knowledgable Jew to accept your theories about the appeal to the heart rather than fear, or the innate moral superiority of the followers of Jesus over those who follow the Creator’s Torah.

    4. Elisha had sweetened the waters at Jericho, which until then were undrinkable. When he left Jericho to continue to Beit El the young people of an area nearby called ‘d’man ne’urin’ taunted him. They were angry because they had supplied water to the people of Jericho, and by sweetening the water Elisha took away their livelihood. They shouted ‘go up, bald one’ basically ‘get lost’ and continued to abuse and denigrate him, for he had made their land ‘bald’ by healing the water and obviating their livelihood.

      Elisha then looked behind him, and saw them. This Hebrew word ‘saw’ is used in the same way when Moses ‘saw’ them Egyptian beating the Israelite. He saw that no worthwhile progeny would come of these children, and at that point cursed them in God’s name to emphasize that the deed came from Gd, for denigrating a messenger of God, which was himself. At that time the bears came out of the forest and devoured the children.

      Elisha did not tell others to defend him, he defended himself, for the honor of God, as a messenger of God, and only if God approved. The Sages came down harshly on him for doing this deed, and in fact the Wise Men of France criticized Elisha sharply using the verse from Proverbs 17:26saying that ‘a righteous person should not punish’ (lit. Also, to punish, the righteous is not good).

      There are many examples in the Old Testament where GOD punishes those who disparage His prophets. This is quite different from a blanket order for everyone to punish by death a presumed insult to the prophet Mohammed.

      1. ahad_ha_amoratsim

        Don’t confuse Joe by telling him there is anything good about the supposedly cruel and inhumane Jewish religion, or that G*d actually did any of the things recounted in the scripture that Joe claims to believe in.

  2. Muslims believe any one who criticizes their terrorist prophet deserve to be murdered.

    That is Islam. Anjem Choudary explained quite clearly why and wherefore Islam has nothing to do with democracy, human rights and enlightenment.

    Its not the Religion Of Peace. Its the Religion Of Terror.

    People who don’t listen to him and his ilk do not really grasp what make Islam so dangerous to free peoples everywhere in the world.

        1. And I thought Choudary was detained and a criminal case was opened against him a couple of months ago. I was unpleasantly surprised to see him again on TV.

  3. The penalty for blasphemy

    Leviticus 24
    10Now the son of an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father went out among the Israelites, and a fight broke out in the camp between him and an Israelite. 11The son of the Israelite woman blasphemed the Name with a curse; so they brought him to Moses. (His mother’s name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri the Danite.) 12They put him in custody until the will of the Lord should be made clear to them.

    13Then the Lord said to Moses: 14“Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him. 15Say to the Israelites: ‘Anyone who curses their God will be held responsible; 16anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord is to be put to death. The entire assembly must stone them. Whether foreigner or native-born, when they blaspheme the Name they are to be put to death.

    1. There is a difference between showing disrespect for G-d and criticizing a human being.

      In any case, the biblical law on blasphemy is not enforced at all today.

      1. In Israel today, even the most vile terrorist is not killed after trial, and is too often set free. There is NO correlation, between sharia which kills regularly in Arab countries around the Middle East.

        1. ahad_ha_amoratsim

          In Israel today, a Jew who criticises Islam, even if the criticism is true and contains no threats, is more likely to be charged with a crime than a Jew or non-Jew who criticises Judaism in terms that are false, crude and incite to violence.

    2. Tapioca Jade: Israel, contrary to what your uninformed friends might be telling you, Israel is not a fundamentalist theocracy so all of your Biblical cherry picking is quite irrelevant. Israel is a secular democracy and the death penalty is very restricted and, with only one exception (Adolf Eichmann) has never been used – though there has sadly been no shortage of worthy terrorist candidates.
      Even as a theological position, these death penalty quotes have been rendered completely toothless by centuries of rabbinical exegesis.
      The ugly truth you are trying to avoid is clear: Islam is a political ideology wrapped in religious trappings whose fundamental values you find repulsive (as any Westerner would) but you are too afraid of seeming insufficiently politically correct to suggest that their creed be leavened by good progressive values.
      What this event confirms is the incompatibility of Islamic and leftist values and the fraudulence of their alliance against Israel specifically but the West in general. Memories are short, but surely Progressives remember the fate of their colleagues during the consolidation of Khomeini’s revolution in Iran in 1979. Do they really expect a different outcome with such allies this time?

      1. My creed is Christianity, thank God. Jesus, before the offense, repondió: “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do”.

        SU creed, Judaism, Islam seems too. What happens is that the Jews are civilized after living many centuries between Christians and embrace their values. 🙂
        The Jews always try to ignore the dark parts of their faith (the book), diverting all evil to Islam. They look a lot …

        1. And according to the verse of Matthew 10:34, Jesus also said “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.”
          The point is that, unlike Islam as currently interpreted, these seemingly violent verses have been redefined over time and, more importantly in the West, Christianity in all its forms, just like Judaism, are separated from political power and its rules and laws (by which I mean what could pass as criminal laws and punishments) are not backed up by the power of the state. The same is simply not the case in Muslim majority states, with very few exceptions.

        2. ahad_ha_amoratsim

          “What happens is that the Jews are civilized after living many centuries between Christians and embrace their values. :-)”
          You mean values like burning Jews at the stake, locking them in ghettos, barring them from owning land and practicing trades, burning down their homes and synagogues and slaughtering entire towns full of Jews? Expelling them from entire countries and confiscating all they own, to wander starving, defenseless and penniless to whatever country will take them in? Stealing their children and forcibly converting them? Yeah, Joe, you’ve got a lot to teach us about values.

        3. Oh yeah. The same Jews who had a judicial system back in the times when your “civilized” Christians were still tree-climbing pagans who devoured their own children and worshiped any object that happened to come nearby?

      2. ahad_ha_amoratsim

        The other ugly truth is that he does not much care for the Jewish religion, and is willing to believe ridiculous and mutually inconsistent lies about it, while patting himself on the back for two millennia of humane Christians lovingly persecuting and murdering Jews.

    3. the Talmud states in tractate Makot 1;10 that a court who put a person to death once every seventy (70) years was considered a murderous court.There is an opinion that says once ever seven (7) years.
      The requirements for witnesses and testimony are such that the death penalty was rarely carried out

  4. Hard Little Machine

    If you think the media kowtowing is bad just wait till the actual murderers are celebrated by the men and women running the governments of the countries they are trying to wipe out.

  5. Hard Little Machine

    What’s priceless is that all the liberal comics like Jon al Amriki Stewart went on a tear last night they ‘would not be silenced’, ignoring for a minute that not only did they cower and refuse to address or publish these things originally but also castigated anyone who stood up to these threats before. Choudray would make an excellent guest on The Daily Show.

  6. It’s worth checking out the responses to the Kristoff column. At least 95% of the commenters express strong disagreement, and often disgust, with Kristoff’s sentiments, and this is in the NYT!
    There may not be hope for humankind, but there does seem to be a limit to the amount of nonsense even Times readers will swallow under the current situation.

    1. ahad_ha_amoratsim

      Kristoff, like Tom Friedman, is one of those people that has been wrong so many times about so many things that you have to wonder why anyone still takes him seriously.

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