Thanks For Defending Israel But Don’t Dare Try Convert Us!

Note: I have deliberated long and hard whether to publish this post because it calls out (again) an effective pro-Israel advocate whose advocacy work I respect. But I feel compelled to post this because of my concerns.

I also want to stress up front that I am very appreciative of our Christian friends and supporters. This post is not aimed against them, but rather those people who I believe are trying to convert Jews to Christianity. And I have nothing against Christianity – it is just not for Jews!

I have already written twice before about pro-Israel advocate Hananya Naftali – once to take him to task for what I saw as dishonesty and trying to get Jews to become Christians, and again in response to a video in which he pretty much called me a hater for pointing this out.

But I feel the need to post again on this subject because I have since discovered that he also writes for a site called Kehila News Israel, affiliated with this ministry, and whose mission includes spreading the truth about Israel..

Because the Truth needs to be proclaimed!
The online battle for truth about Israel is fierce. The stakes are high. Much of the media is biased. Lies and distortions abound. Don’t you feel as if the world is blinded when it comes to Israel and the Middle East? Would you like to hear the real story about what’s happening in Israel? Directly from believers in the Land of Israel? Even among Christians, Israel related verses and prophecies are misinterpreted.

Kehila News Israel is more than just a news site. Our mission is to change the way the world views Israel, one reader at a time. Truth needs to be proclaimed!

(Much like Hananya does effectively)

But also..

Yeshua Needs to be proclaimed!
Israel needs Yeshua. Gentiles need Yeshua. The whole world needs Yeshua, and Yeshua alone. Kehila News brings you the news through the eyes of Messianic Jewish believers: How is biblical prophecy being fulfilled in these very days? Where are we in the prophetic timeline? How is the Iran deal connected to all this?

Kehila News Israel’s goal is to change the way Israel views Yeshua (Jesus). Lies and distortion also abound in this area.

So clearly the site is affiliated with the Messianic Jewish community.

Not only that, but his posts on the site indicate his own affiliation with this movement.

For instance:

I recently attended a conference for Messianic soldiers. I heard Jonathan share his testimony and was amazed to hear how God healed him

And here he interviews his friend Joshua Aaron, an international Messianic worship leader, minister and director of Hallel Ministries International.

But if you recall, Hananya claimed he was not part of Messianic Judaism.

Why the need to lie about it?

Note how he also claimed both his parents are Jewish and he’s just a normal Israeli guy who made his own decision to follow Jesus.

But this post of his indicates his father is what they call a “believer.”

I decided to share my dad’s testimony of when we lived in Northern Samaria. I was too young to understand how God worked through my dad, Israel, specifically among Muslim Arabs! God has heart for all mankind, including Muslims. And my dad was a tool in His hands.

Now, you must know that the people in Jenin are very special! I noticed that they take high interest in what the person in front of them believes. So usually the first questions I was asked were, ‘Where are you from?’, and ‘What do you believe in?’. This was a very common question in Jenin. Their questions opened opportunities for me to share my faith. So I started to talk about Jesus, and said to them that I’m Jewish and I believe in Jesus Christ.

They were very surprised and asked if I am Jewish or Christian. I answered that for me, Jesus is not a religion, it’s a TRUTH. My stories about being Jewish and believing in Jesus quickly spread in Jenin, which then had a population around 60,000, most of whom were Muslims.

The rumors spread so quickly that when I was walking in the center of the city, people would stop me and ask if I believe in Jesus.

‘Yes!’ I said.

And they replied, “Is there a chance you could get us the New Testament in Arabic so that we could read about this Jesus you believe in?”

I have never seen such thirst to hear about Jesus in any place I have ever visited. I started to talk with a certain organization that was specialized in sharing the gospel in Arabic, and they sent me copes of Arabic Bibles and leaflets about Jesus. I gave out everything they sent me, to anyone who wanted to hear about my faith, including the Palestinian policemen.

In other words, it seems Hananya has just followed his father in to the family business.

And remember when he claimed he was not trying to convert Jews to Christianity?

I am still having a hard time believing this, given Hananya does not seem to have been entirely honest with his other claims. Plus writing things like this about a believer in Jesus who serves in the IDF does not exactly instill me with confidence about his sincerity in this regard:

Thank you Benjamin for being such an encouragement to Kehila News Israel readers. I pray that you could touch more hearts in the IDF!

Remember, this is what the Messianic movement believes.

They are not about just about “living their lives as normal guys” – their core belief is Jesus will not come back unless the Jews accept him as their savior.

Here we have a very charismatic young man passionately defending Israel. He has established a not insignificant following. I could imagine this would include some young people who might even idolize him and even want to emulate him. That concerns me.

76 thoughts on “Thanks For Defending Israel But Don’t Dare Try Convert Us!”

  1. ahad_ha_amoratsim

    Some scholars trace the split between Judaism and Christianity — the point when the latter became a separate religion rather than a sect of Jews — to the time of Paul/Saul of Tarsus. See e.g. https://www.amazon.com/Mythmaker-Paul-Invention-Christianity/dp/0062505858. And Paul admitted that he did not let truth stand in the way of converting people, and that he was willing to tell people what he thought they wanted to hear, whether it was true or not:

    “And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are
    under the Law, as under the Law, though not being myself under the Law,
    that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without
    law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under
    the law of [oto ha’ish], that I might win those who are without law. To the
    weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things
    to all men, that I may by all means save some. And I do all things for
    the sake of the gospel, that I may become a fellow partaker of it.”

    So using deception to convert people, particularly Jews, has a long pedigree.

    1. christianity is the religion of paul, who just used jesus as a messianic figure to spread his religion
      paul was a hellenist who hated jews…which is why there is so much jew hate in the new testament

        1. ahad_ha_amoratsim

          That’s pretty funny, given that the guy you mention was a man, and that the rules and regulations you denigrate were given to the Jews by G*d.

          1. I don’t denigrate what God gave the Jews. He said to rest on Shabbat. Religion says don’t pick up a screwdriver on Shabbat lest you use it and break the commandment to rest. The rules and traditions of men are not the Law of God.

            1. ahad_ha_amoratsim

              Funny, my Bible says G*d commanded the Jews throughout our generations to listen to our religious leaders on such matters. He also told us not to be swayed or tempted by the arguments of the nations.

                  1. This refers to Courts of Law. If this is for all generations are those in contempt of court to be put to death as verse 12 suggests?

                    1. ahad_ha_amoratsim

                      And once again, some missionary decides he knows our religion better than we do, based on his reading of the written law divorced from the oral law, and the demand for 30 second answers.

                      The short answer is that power to impose the death penalty is suspended while we are under rule of the idolaters, and also while the Sanhedrin is not in session — which it has not for over 1500 years. But that does not suspend the obligation to listen to what the rabbis teach.

                    2. I asked a question. Take as long as you like to answer it. Your evident arrogance in the way you have answered does you and your religion no credit.

              1. ahad_ha_amoratsim

                Yes, and we have been told for centuries that the Jews, by not accepting him, are crucifying him still.

                Compared to your mockery of Judaism, our cousin is getting off easy.

                1. Jesus was crucified once only. Whether Jew or Gentile fails to accept him doesn’t alter that. I am not telling you what others have told you for centuries. I am telling you Jesus died once only for all. I am not here to make you believe anything. I revere what you call the Tanach as foundational to my faith. I do not mock the Judaism of Moses, but I do not have time for those who bind up men in rules and regulations. And such men exist in all religions.

      1. ahad_ha_amoratsim

        Rather ducks the issue, doesn’t it? Whether or not Paul was deceived into become Christian, he certainly put a stamp of approval on deceiving others.

        1. Being all things to all men is not deceit. Paul, being a Jew, was well versed in the Law and could relate to those under the Law. Equally, he would adapt his teaching to those not under the Law – Gentiles. Paul met with Christ on the road to Damascus. Prior to that encounter he was zealous in pesecuting the early Christians and gave his approval to the stoning to death of Stephen. Jesus changes lives unquestionably.

          1. If you would actually take the risk of reading Hyam Maccoby’s book, you would discover that Paul actually didn’t understand the Law at all. Not every Jew is learned in the Law (especially not in that sectarian time) any more than every East Asian knows martial arts.

            1. I always thought Saul was a Pharisee of the better sort, I.e. zealous for the religion of his fathers. Hence his zeal in persecuting followers of Jesus before he himself was converted.

    2. Your quotation is completely, completely out of context and I would be careful to to things like this, as it shows your ignorance. Anything you say from this point on will be taken with a grain of salt.

        1. http://www.british-israel.ca/Paul%20and%20the%20Law.htm (as one explanation)

          Remember too that Paul was a missionary. The Jewish as well as the Gentile world of the day knew that about him – in other words they knew exactly what to expect from him: talk about Jesus and the Gospel. On many occasions Paul spoke to Jewish people in their synagogues!

          Let me tell you something: The moment you become aware someone close to you is a committed follower of Jesus, that very moment you can know for sure that that person would a) be wanting for you to become a follower of Jesus too [out of your free will], b) praying for you, c) trying to establish a relationship of genuine trust with you [that which Paul did], and d) waiting for/EARNING (among others by living a pure, joyful life) the opportunity to share their experience of/with Jesus with you. SHARE, not shove down your throat. “This is my story.” That’s it. The Christian acts in agreement with his/her belief system.

          It always remains your choice what to do with that testimony.

          Whatever you say about that, it is done in the follower of Jesus’ love for you, wishing you the best they believe G_d has for you. There is nothing to be scared of.

          (By the way, by writing G_d I’m becoming “like a Jew” in order not to offend you. Do you have a problem with that? Am I disingenuous doing that?)

          Be blessed.

  2. I don’t know if this guy is a member of “Jews for Jesus” but he certainly acts like he is a member in good standing. I love those YouTube videos where members of “Jews for Judaism” follow these Messianic Jews around while they are trying to convert Jews to Christianity and debunk their message.

    1. ahad_ha_amoratsim

      Debunk is exactly the right word, as the message is based on gross misunderstanding or distortion of the Judaism that the missionaries claim to be ‘perfecting.’

      1. As political author and provocateur Ann Coulter once told tv personality Donnie Deutch (a Jew): “Jews are just un-perfected Christians” this seems to be a commonly-held view among many Christians.

  3. Hi Aussie Dave,

    As promised, a longer response to your claim that Hananya Naftali is lying about “not wanting to convert Jews” to Christianity. 140 characters really makes it difficult to argue one’s case.

    If you suspect Naftali of wanting Jews to become Christians, you are of course right. Christians believe that is exactly what they have to do – spread the Good News, “make disciples of Jesus”, etc. Christianity is per definition an evangelical movement. Naftali, like all Christians, believes he has found the Gift of eternal life and wants to tell the whole world about it. He admits that in one of the clips you have posted. Should someone want to talk to him about his faith, he will willingly share it.

    I think you have a problem with that, because it may well lead someone (Jewish) to become a Christian, and that is why you blame Naftali of wanting to “convert” Jews. Note, however, that Naftali would only share his faith on invitation. (Subtly, you call it.) That, however, you should regard as his right, just as it is the right of the person asking Naftali about his faith to hear Naftali’s explanation. It is then for that person to decide how to react to that explanation. There is no coersion, no improper “influencing”, no “(forced) converting”. A Christian shares his faith on invitation. It’s a discussion. Surely you cannot describe that as “proselytising”/”converting”? It would only be that if the Christian approaches a Jewish person and instructs them: You need Jesus. Let me tell you about Him. I believe Naftali makes it clear in one of those clips that that is not what he is doing/wanting to do.

    So if Naftali says he does not want to convert Jews, he means he does not want to do that forcefully, insensitively, bluntly, illegally. He is not proselytising. Should someone want to become a Christian following a rational discussion, though, then by all means Naftali would like to lead that person to Christ. He is there, and he knows the way.

    Naftali is spreading the news of Jesus the same way you (and he) are spreading the news of Israel. He wants to reach the whole world with that news the same way you want to reach the whole world with the (good!) news of Israel. He will talk to whoever is willing to listen. Even if that is in the IDF.

    As for his comment “Israel needs Jeshua”: if that comment is made on his website, surely he has the freedom of speech to make it? He is not addressing a Jewish gathering. He is addressing his own (Christian) audience, who is likely to agree with him. You may not like that – you may even be afraid of it – but surely you will agree that it is his right to make that statement? If a pastor says in a church in Jerusalem Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, would you have a problem with him making that statement? Naftali’s church is his website. Just like Jewish people may go into a church building and hear the pastor making that statement, Jewish people can visit Naftali’s website and see those words. How they react to it is up to them.

    So: When I say I want someone to become a Christian I am NOT saying I want to “influence and convert” them as if in some kind of attack. That is not how Jesus went about it, and that is not how Christians should go about it. That’s not what Naftali is saying either. If you think I misunderstood what you mean with “he is lying”, please let me know.

    I am really impressed with the work you are doing in Israel and do believe you will be blessed because of it.

    Best wishes,
    Johan Niemann, BNE

    1. I think this is the best expression of the Christian approach that I have ever seen. But of course you understand why Jews are just a wee bit sensitive about this issue. When in a reckless mood, I sometimes refer to Christianity and Islam as “the original cultural appropriation” and “the cultural appropriation of cultural appropriation” respectively, just for the hell of it….

      1. “But of course you understand why Jews are just a wee bit sensitive about this issue.”

        Its not a sensitivity issue. Its a “calling a spade a spade” issue.

        And when we see someone calling a spade a hoe one begins to wonder why.

        Of course, if I were cynical I’d say its because they think acts of proselytising are more effective if they are not perceived as acts of proselytising.

    2. ahad_ha_amoratsim

      Christian missionaries prey on Jews who are ignorant about Judaism, and often those who are emotionally vulnerable. They tend to be less successful in converting people who learn Torah and guard mitzvos. Just as you Christians believe they have to make disciples, Jews believe we have to protect Jews from being enticed into worship of anything except G*d — including worship of a god who takes human form or who is three entities in one.

      1. Less successful? More like not successful at all. Jews who have a clue about Judaism are immune, which is precisely why these organizations pour millions upon millions of dollars into luring clueless secular Jews – of which, unfortunately, there are many.

        Here’s a video of a “Jews For Judaism” talk from 1989. It’s long, but eye-opening and worth watching (and I happen to know two of the speakers). One can only imagine how much worse the problem has become since then.
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0z5fyNWwTc

        1. ahad_ha_amoratsim

          Bingo. You and I are on the same page, and Jews for Judaism is a terrific organization doing vital work.
          Have a good Shabbos.

      2. You may believe that, but that doesn’t mean you are right. It just makes you like one of the Pharisees in the time of Jesus.

        1. ahad_ha_amoratsim

          Pharisees were those who practiced rabbinic Judaism, just as Orthodox Jews do today. By using Pharisee as a synonym for self-righteous hypocrite, the Gospels show exactly what they thought of Jew and Judaism. And much of what the Gospels say about the beliefs and actions of the Pharisees is a lie, while other statements have been misinterpreted do to clergy’s abysmal ignorance of Jewish practice and belief.

          So thank you for choosing to apply that term to me. If shows me that you are just one more missionary with little knowledge of Judaism and even less respect for Jews.

    3. “Note, however, that Naftali would only share his faith on invitation.”

      I’m reminded of the common advertising tactic where a business would say: “Ask us how we can save you money!”.

      According to your logic, such a business is not trying to sell something because the business would only share how one can save money with them if they were asked.

      “So if Naftali says he does not want to convert Jews, he means he does
      not want to do that forcefully, insensitively, bluntly, illegally. He is
      not proselytising.”

      So, you are arguing that one can only label something as “proselytising” if it is done forcefully, insensitively, bluntly, or illegally?

      “Naftali is spreading the news of Jesus the same way you (and he) are spreading the news of Israel.”

      See this is the problem I have with this.

      “Spreading the news of Jesus” is specific terminology that missionaries use for what they do. In other words, it is a euphemism for proselytising.
      Now, euphemisms have their place, but WHY do you (and I have seen others do this) go into tortured little knots trying to argue that specific acts of proselytising are anything other than acts of proselytising?

      1. You miss the whole point. It is the hearing of the Gospel that (may) lead to conversion. The preacher is only the mouthpiece. We are given a mind to work things out for ourselves, and it is God who changes hearts, not men. A Christian does not earn brownie points by preaching the Gospel.

        1. I’m sorry, but this is obfuscating the issue. The issue is very clear. Is it or is it NOT an act of proselytizing?
          By saying that a “preacher is only a mouthpiece” are you trying to imply that the given preacher is not proselytizing? If so, how can proselytizing ever exist in reality?
          Also, that begs the question: What goal is the preacher trying to achieve by serving as this “mouthpiece”? Is not his goal so that someone may/possibly/perhaps come to believe in his Christian beliefs? And if that is the case, then how is that NOT proselytizing?

          1. Call it proselytizing then. I’m trying to get people to see it is not man trying to convert but man speaking what he believes to be true and allowing the words to do the work. History is full of stories of convert or die. Jesus never said that. He commanded his disciples to go out and preach the Gospel to the whole world. If you read the Gospels you will find that Jesus never forced anyone to believe what he said. If peole were not interested he moved on and taught elsewhere.

            1. I AM calling it proselytizing. I have no problem with doing that. It is YOU that has problem calling it proselytizing when it clearly IS proselytizing.
              And it is quite remarkable that you can’t give a CLEAR answer to the question: Is it proselytizing or is it NOT proselytizing? YES or NO?

              “I’m trying to get people to see it is not man trying to convert but man speaking what he believes to be true and allowing the words to do the work.”
              That is ridiculous because it assumes that the person is merely a passive object that has no control over what comes out of his mouth (or keyboard). I am assuming that we are talking about human beings here that are responsible for their actions and that includes what they CHOOSE to say and their INTENTIONS behind what they SAY. Because if we follow your “logic” to the absurd extreme, then a Muslim who specifically targets Christians to try to convince them to convert to Islam (and they do exist) can deny that his actions are ones of proselytizing and say things like “he is only a mouthpiece for the Koran” and that he is merely a “man speaking what he believes to be true and allowing the words to do the work.” Like I said, you are trying to deny that the idea of proselytizing even exists.

              1. Okay. Lets agree then that proselytisation is sharing one’s faith with the end view that the one being proselytised comes to believe what he hears or changes his/her faith. I am not going to argue anymore about the mechanism of the process.So, if a person’s beliefs compel him to proselytise (Jesus said to go and preach the Gospel to the whole world) do you think it right that some one should protest that he not be allowed to do so. This is the gist of Aussie Daves article. It could be viewed as religious intolerance, something Israel prides itself on not having.

                1. Is that really the gist of Aussie Dave’s article? I’m not so sure of that. (Perhaps he can clarify.) I think that you are bringing up a separate issue from the one that is being discussed. What you are talking about is whether in a free speech society one should be allowed to proselytize. I would argue yes, they should be allowed. I also strongly believe in others rights to OBJECT to such efforts, even in strong terms. So certainly Aussie Dave has the right to object strongly to Naftali’s efforts at proselytizing to Jews.
                  So in that vein, there is no problem with what Aussie Dave has said.
                  But the issue here is not whether Naftali has the right to proselytize but fhe fact that he DENIED that was what he was doing. And Johann’s and your defence of him in fact makes the case that he is IN FACT trying to proselytize. After all, are not the “mechanics” of “spreading the news about Jesus” or “serving as a mouthpiece for the Gospel” merely acts of prosletization when you strip out the euphemisms? And if that is the case, then it appears that Aussie Dave’s objections to his efforts are well founded. Like I said in my other comment, call a spade a spade. And when someone calls it a hoe one begins to wonder why. Is it that they didn’t put a lot of thought into it? Cognitive dissonance? Or maybe its a form of deception?

                  1. I think it comes down to this, who is the enemy of our souls? Aussie Dave sees Jews as being in spiritual danger from the Gospel, which, I would hope, be presented sincerely. From my perspective I don’t see Naftali practising deceit. Christians understand the enemy of our souls as something else. I am not going to elaborate on who this enemy is. I have no wish to offend

                    1. “Aussie Dave sees Jews as being in spiritual danger from the Gospel…”

                      Considering that the Jewish point of view is that belief in Jesus is diametrically opposed to what the Torah requires Jews to believe, then, indeed proselytizing does present a spiritual danger. This is a view that I share as well. But at the same time, for Aussie Dave (who is an Orthodox Jew) to air such a view is not actually controversial. But at the same time, there has been an effort from Naftali, Johan, and yourself to deny that what he is doing is proselytizing. In fact, Johan explicitly said: “He is not proselytizing.” So again, the question is very simple: Is he or isn’t he proselytizing and if the answer is YES why deny it? Deceit is only ONE possible explanation. If the answer is NO, then I have yet to see any valid argument to that effect.

                    2. Yes, I understand the Orthodox Jewish view and yes, I know it is not a controversial view. The offence to the Jew is that a Christian would dare to proselytise to them. However, Jesus is a stumbling block to Jew and Gentile alike. I cannot get you over that by argument and I am not going to try. I am not Jewish, I never had a Christian upbringing. I came to believe in Jesus through the witness of other Christians at age thirty. Some Jews accept me, others say I believe in a Pauline distortion of Hebrew Scriptures, still others characterise me as a lurking spiritual thief.

                    3. “The offence to the Jew is that a Christian would dare to proselytise to them.”

                      Well, I would expect it to be obvious that people who follow one religion would take offense (or at least greatly prefer that it was not done) when members of another religion proselytize to them. I would imagine Christians would take offense if a Muslim tried to convince them to convert to Islam.
                      The end point, as far as I see it, is still the same. Naftali is engaging in acts of proselytizing and there appears to be a denial that that is what he is doing. If so, then Aussie Dave’s point has validity.

                    4. “I would imagine Christians would take offense if a Muslim tried to convince them to convert to Islam.”

                      Not at all. They would labour to show the Muslim that the one they revere as Jesus the Prophet and mentioned in the Koran, is the Jesus who died and rose again for them.

                    5. Yes! It is said that Jews do not proselytise. What would you call their attempts to disabuse me of my understanding of their Scriptures?

                    6. Hmmm…. How about counter missionizing?
                      I think we’re off topic here.
                      It is clear that some Christians engage in prosletization.
                      That applies to Naftali’s efforts.

                    7. “Counter missionising,” i.e. “We are right and you are wrong, now leave us alone.” I get the message. Nice to talk to you.

                    8. ahad_ha_amoratsim

                      Exactly. And there is a big difference between “we don’t want to hear it” and “you need to become one of us.”

                    9. And what is wrong with the idea of leaving us alone? (Translation: Don’t proselytize to us.)
                      Many Christians do in fact manage to do precisely that.

                    10. ahad_ha_amoratsim

                      Added to this is the sheer nerve of telling a Jew “We Christians understand Judaism better than even the most learned rabbi does.” I actually had a former law partner of mine tell me that rabbis knew that JC was what the Christians claim he is, and deliberately keep the truth from us in order to preserve their own power and privilege.
                      (If he knew what a pittance Orthodox rabbis and Torah scholars live on, he’d rethink that in a hurry.)

                    11. In addition to the sheer nerve of lecturing Jews about what their own scriptures “really” mean – is the chutzpah of disparaging the Oral Law, and then using Oral Law-based ritual (tallis, kippah, kiddush, etc.), via the “Messianic movement”, to ease Jews into Christianity. But this is somehow not to be regarded as deception.

                    12. I’ve encountered similar claims in another online forum I’ve participated in (“and deliberately keep the truth from us”) as well as the standard “they are blind” claim (and its many variations).

                      In fairness, my issue here is not that but the rather odd distancing from the word “proselytize”. The point is simple: Naftali engages in acts of proselytizing thus Aussie Dave’s critique of such acts as well as the denial that that is what he was doing is well warranted.

                    13. It’s not odd, it’s deliberate. Proselytizing to Jews has been an abject failure for millennia. Therefore, missionaries eventually realized they needed to change tack and obfuscate their intent.

                    14. ahad_ha_amoratsim

                      Not so much to gentile. It is not idolatry (the inaccurate but conventional translation of avodah zarah) for a gentile to believe in shitfut (literally, partnership; also spelled shiftus; from the Heb. root Shin Tet Peh, partner) — the idea that G*d partners, as it were, with other, subordinate powers. According to many authorities, Noahide law does not prohibit that belief. (I’m told, though, that this view is not unanimous.)
                      But according to all authorities, it is 100% forbidden for Jews to believe in the idea of Shitfus or to worship that way, RH”L. And we believe that every time you convince a Jew to believe in the divinity of that man, or in some kind of three-part god, you bring punishment on that Jew, and bring the entire world that much closer to destruction.

                    15. ahad_ha_amoratsim

                      Anyone who tries to get Jews to worship anyone or anything other than G*d. By definition that includes worshipping to a dead human being, or to a god that consists partly of G*d and partly of a human being, as though G*d were somehow composite or divisible or other than One.

                  2. ahad_ha_amoratsim

                    Steve seems to be demanding free speech for missionaries (which they already have) but not for those who object to proselytizing or being proselytized, or who expose the lies of the missionaries.

          2. And a Christian does not set out to get someone “to believe in his Christian beliefs.” The Christian reflects Christ in his words and actions to those around him. And he can’t do this without Christ dwelling within him. Read the Gospels for yourself and make your own mind up. Don’t take anyone’s word for it. You have a mind, use it.

            1. “And a Christian does not set out to get someone “to believe in his Christian beliefs.””

              Really? So, when you said “It is the hearing of the Gospel that (may) lead to conversion.” and that the “preacher is only the mouthpiece” then it was NOT the preacher’s intention that serving as that mouthpiece that others may “hear the gospel and thus lead to their conversion to Christianity”?

              1. Can’t you read properly? A Christian introduces people to Jesus, he does not try to get someone “to believe in his Christian beliefs,” as you wrote in your original comment. Jesus is not a set of, “Christian beliefs.”

                1. ahad_ha_amoratsim

                  Whenever missionaries see that a Jew is too well informed to fall for their sincerely held distortions of Judaism, they resort almost invariably to insult and ridicule.

      2. ‘I’m reminded of the common advertising tactic where a business would say: “Ask us how we can save you money!” ‘

        I’m saying exactly the opposite. Someone approaches the business, saying, “How can you save me money?”

        Someone approaches the Christian, saying, “Tell me more about what you believe.”

        It’s an invitation.

        If someone asked you about why you are looking so much younger nowadays and you tell them it’s because you’re using A to Zink, is that proselytising, or is it answering the question?

        1. That of course, makes the assumption that that is what Naftali is doing here… just passively sitting around keeping his mouth shut minding his own business and people just happen to come up and ask him about Jesus. But even YOU don’t agree. You yourself said that Naftali is “is spreading the news of Jesus” i.e. an ACTIVE intent on his part to do so. And it is quite remarkable that you (and others) can’t simply admit that Naftali is proselytizing or at least provide a logical argument why it isn’t proselytizing and what the difference is between him and others who do proselytize.

  4. ahad_ha_amoratsim

    “Yeshua” does not need to be proclaimed. On the other hand, recognizing that YESHA (Yehudah, Shomron and ‘Aza) is part of Eretz Yisrael DOES need to be proclaimed.

    Make YEHSA Israel again!

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